Let's face it Aztec needs a rework

Captured Falconets as an Infinite card would be cool.
Light Cannon may be a bit too strong, and Hauds get it because they have no Long Range anti-Artillery unit, while Aztecs get Arrow Knights.

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Well i agree with you both.

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After Usa Update not only Aztecs but also Ottomans and other Euro civs needs it.

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Well Aztec got their mid to lategame buffed quite substationally in the latest patches with the card changes to cost less coin, Aztec mining being fixed and Great Chinampa to 20% gather rate for food/coin and moved to Age IV.

However for some reason the devs reduced the early unit shipments by 1 unit each, which is of course a massive deal.

So now everyone dropped Aztec since early aggresion and unit shipments was their only strategy. I could imagine if they reverted the nerfs to early unit shipments, people would go back to Aztec and maybe explore a more mid to lategame strategy with them. Sure they can’t boom like Brits or Sweden. But booming with exp dance and later fertility dance can give you some serious villager training. And with the buffs to mid to lategame they are a lot better if they can get to that point.

In conclusion they have potential in mid to lategame now, where they were lackign before. But buffing mid to lategame while nerfing earlygame? Thats not how I would do changes. You have to give players time to explore the game and not pre-emptively nerf something.

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The problem was that they needed some better artillery (and anti-artillery) than the Arrow Knight, which is rather sucky, hence I suggested Light Cannons, as they are both. If Light Cannons are too strong, they should get Captured Culverins instead, as the Arrow Knights primarily fail at being anti-artillery, rather than at taking down enemy buildings.

It does fail at both countering artillery and destroying building for a 2 pop unit and a high cost… At 36 siege atk every 6 sec and 2 pop, its super useless. Consider a mortar at 500 dmg every 6 sec for 4 pop. Pop wise you get 2(arrow knight for 4 pop) * 2(number of attack in 6 sec since they have rate of fire of 3) * 36 = 144. Pop wise it is impossibly bad. Ressource wise it is still really bad, they are less cost effective than a mortar at destroying building.

They should just make the arrrow knight cost effective vs artillery so it works as well as a culverin. For the same cost as a culverin, it should be as effective.

The strong point of aztecs is that most units cost 1pop giving them superiority of units. Maybe I would give them more bonus against artillery

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Yes, but a mass of arrow knights are more mobile and have a higher survivability rate than a Mortar. Also they are shipped at age III, can easily deal with the 2 falc shipment, and have a big button timing.

Not saying they are the best, but i kinda like them. I have way more problems with Coyotes and their survivability than with arrow knights

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If I remember correctly Aztecs have a 6 Arrow Knights card in III age. This card seems to be massively underpowered compared to 2 Falconets card. I’m 99% sure that 2 falconets will easily handle 6 Arrow Knights even in Stagger Mode.

But remember - Arrow Knights supposed to counter artillery! Aztecs do not have any other units with multiplier against artillery. So the result of this fight should be a convincing victory for Arrow Knights.
Unfortunately - it is not. Arrow Knight just needs a buff:

  • Maybe a bigger base damage?
  • Maybe a stronger multipliers?
  • Maybe a new technologies in the temples?
  • Or maybe decrease their x5.0 multipliers against artillery to x2.0 but change it to Siege Damage instead of Ranged Damage? That would bypass 75% resistance of artillery to ranged damage. It wouldn’t be that stupid - in fact it is a siege unit.
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Since it’s ranged damage, I think multipliers is better (from X5 to X8)

I think also balance wise, since its “really big range” and that they’re also “anti-building”, this is why they take “very long” to land the first attack, and that they cost 2pop.

So at this point, I think a new technology in a new building then should be better.

New building with new technologies is a good idea, but it would require wood investment in a building and also some resources for buying a technology.
If opponent is going to attack with 2 falconets in early Fortress, Aztec player won’t have a time to upgrade Arrow Knigths. Technologies in the temple is a good idea for more “late” game.

I think that base multiplier vs artillery can be easily increased from x5 to x7-x8 without any negative impact on game balance.

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Not, in that way war song wont boost them. I prefer a better bonus against canons, or more penaltie for canons

I play Aztec a lot in FFA (Legacy, so I am not up to-date on other balance changes), it must not be the units themselves but the economic start up that is the problem. (FFA gets a better chance to turtle/ boom)

I find in my composition I have 10-15 arrow knights at all time. It takes 15 to kill cannon effectively, now it may seem like a lot of pop just to kill cannon, but ERK are so good that another 30 of them pretty much negates the opponent from making any cav to counter the arrow knights. Then I will in with coyotes or Jag knights or more ERk depending on what is needed.

Their only real weakness is coyote runners, that for 1 pop have low HP and low attack when compared to other 1 pop cavalry units like the cossak. Make them too strong however and Azzy army composition OP, but I always found they struggled VS just pure skirm mass, and a few halb or muskets to get into melee with coyotes that just fail so bad vs them.

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Can you test THIS? There are some variables
-simple Arrow knights
-500g upgraded version.
-The carded version
-AK kiting

Coyotes have been buffed, their temple buff their armour and I think that devs give them more HP too.
They buffed great chinampa to +20% in age4

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The temple buff is what? A WHOPPING 25% dmg buff applied to a ranged 10 dmg? Now they have 12.5 dmg :partying_face::star_struck::heart_eyes:!

Even with war dance its not that good. And we need to stop balancing around war dance as aztec or at least less…

Its not normal that you need to have to double card them for them to counter the units they supposed to counter effectively. They got 5hp buff at age 2 but you still have garbage shipment atm which is the only time aztec shine atm. You effectively have nothing to fall back on.

A potential contender buff is to move 3 wp to age 1 allowing you to pull out a USA and send 2 shipment age 1 buffing the “eco” or at least making the plaza come online earlier. It’s especially good with the fact aztec can get 2 shipment by the time they age up to second age. The more I think about this the more I like it!

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I need to admit - I was a little bit too harsch for Arrow Knights.
There is 7 Arrow Knights card in III age, I checked it. This is still only 875 resources compared to 1000 resources needed for 2 Falconets but it is better than 6 AK for sure.

So I tested 7 Arrow Knights vs 2 Falconets. With good micromanagement Falconets are able to kill all 7 AKs. However, in straigth fight Arrow Knights are winning without problems. It was quite a surprise for me. I looked more closely to find out why.

Every Falconet is dealing 100 x 3 x 0,5 = 150 siege damage to AKs. AKs have exactly 150 HP. It means that one Falconet’s shot is going to kill Arrow Kinght instantly. Falconets also have Area Of Damage = 3. So I assumed that all Arrow Knights near the target will die. But is seems that only direct hit is causing 150 damage. Soldiers nearby (even very close) are receiving about 5-30 damage.
I didn’t know that - I thought that every target in range of 3 will receive full damage. It seems that area damage from Falconets is more like “splash” - only direct hit cause full damage, the farther away = less damage.

In that new light I think that Arrow Knights are not that bad. Their biggest disadvantage is 2 population. They still could have better multiplier against artillery like x6 or x7 but x5 is not terrible. Another idea is to increase their health by 5-10 just to let them survive first direct hit from Falconet.

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Arrow knight does only 12 dmg per shot to kill a falc, its about 16 to one shot a falc. The thing is, by the time they kill it, they mostly likely have blown your army to bits. Thats what is sad them. Also they are quite slow making them a nightmare to reposition and shoot since the first arrow is always long before shooting.

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