Let's face it Aztec needs a rework

Is it me or their units are bad? Like coyote get mown down by LB, you need to have like 1/1 ratio to win the fight while 1:2 hussar just destroy LB… Slingers does wonders vs HI but sucks against everything else, pumas are just so squishy that they dont really perform well as counter cav in fight despite their high dps… Jaguar are unusable and Arrow knight are not even decent to counter artillery and takes 2 pops… Skull knight does heavy DPS but cannot reach fight… Only the ERK is their saving grace it seems. It just feels like their units are sub par because of war dance potential. Yet it should not be the case. You should fear an aztec on 10 wp war dance just like a dutch on 5 banks and not straight up win most 1:1 fight because the aztec didnt had his wp battery up. As of now you have to outmass as aztec but with no eco its impossible unless early game but with the recent nerfs its super hard to be effective only because at low level the all in is super effective…

I could see replacing the healing dance they get (which is shiiiitt now…) with a flat walking speed one in age 3 so jaguar and skull knights can get into the fight at least… Could open guerria tactics too. But might be too oppressive… The reasoning with this is alot of their “elite units” are slow and hard hitting and needs a surrounds of the enemy army to be effective. Yet most civs army (skirms + dragoon) have superior mobility and range so it is basically impossible to engage their army without loosing 10% of your army right off the bat. Having a flat movement increase dance could help for the surround.

Their chief/politician are also garbage compared to incas, lakotas, and haude and are in need of a rework.

And not to forget how hard their macro is compared to normal civ since their pike cost are gold and the rest cost wood in the beginning… Switching coyote to gold and pumas to wood could open semi-ff viably. Atm you can’t defend with pikes nor harass haha

Plaza is super important for them to get running yet it takes lots of time to get running sacrificing eco which you already don’t have in order to get more shipment to improve your eco which is just going par with a normal civ and even subpar because of opportunity cost.

Also walls counters them hard be it age 2 or later…

Its so tilting to play this civ knowing full well you can hop on any sub par euro civ and stomp with low effort. You know that the balance issue is very bad when your main civ is loosing you elo and hoping on any other civ makes you win elo instantly lol. Also, no pro plays aztec in the competitive scene and they all agree its a subpar civ.

The civ needs a massive rework or major buffs.

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Aztecs feel fundamentally flawed to be honest, Aztec is pretty much a do or die rush civ that spams unit shipments behind it, but it’s hard to do the warrior priest shipment spam while applying pressure to your opponent, one thing I think Aztec have that not many people use is the community plaza big button upgrade. It’s 50 wood, food and gold. And makes it so units near your war chief kill enemy units and get 3 times the xp from killing enemy units, normally it’s 2 times. Still even with that Aztecs are weak

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I just had a game vs USA. He made only regulars (usa musketeers) and gatling guns and I made only jag prowl knights and arrow knights because I knew thats what he would make. We both had equal resources. I should have slaughtered him, but I lost because I couldn’t cost effectively counter gatling guns, whose only counter appears to be culverins. He can make gatling guns very cheaply for just food and wood, meanwhile I have to spend a lot more to make enough arrow knights to counter one gatling gun. If I make the exact correct counter units with equal resources and skill (it was a ranked match and I’ve beaten the same player before with another civ), I should win. But no.
GatlingOP.age3Yrec (2.2 MB)

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There were many posts about Aztec weknesses in this forum. And it seems that all of them are pretty much the same:

  1. Otontin Slingers - great unit in age II when enemy do not have many cavalry units. But since age III they are too week. Too small HP, too small range. In skirmisher wars thay are just going down. Ranged infantry is a fundament of almost every good army composition in the game so without decent ranged infantry Aztecs have a difficult time competing with Skirmisher + Dragoon or Musketeer + Falconets combos in early Fortress age.
  2. Aztecs are not versatile - they need to commit to one strategy and stick to it. It is very hard for them to go for Warrior Priests boom and fight at the same time.
  3. Aztecs have a powerful units but most of them are melee ones

According to patch notes in patch 20322 Aztecs have one of the highest win percentage in the game. I’m not surprised, they have very strong rush but I’m sure they are winning majority of games very quickly. If oponent is able to survive II age he has a good chances to beat Aztecs in III-IV age because of access to Falconet, better Skirmisher units or better eco (Shrines/Banks/Factories…)

So, what can we do with it? It was suggested many times by different users here and I think it is great idea:

  • New temple building playing a role of Arsenal (military technologies for Aztec army - for example additional HP for Slingers, speed bonus for Jaguar Knights or better multipliers for Arrow Knights).

  • It’s worth to consider also a second temple acting like European Church - maybe a few additional updates and possibility of creating Warrior Priests here? I think it would add new possibilities for Aztecs.

And just a last word - Aztecs still needs to have a modification to be really competetive but balance team already made a great changes in patch 20322 and later on with Skull Knight buff. I’m waiting for more! :wink:

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I covered a bit the “very high” winning rate of aztec in 1vs1 and its truly only valid in lower elo. Any game should not be balanced against total 1vs1 matches but against elo category. High elo would show in how bad of state they are like their tournament pick shows which is super close to 0. They are not in a competitive spot on any map. What they can do (big rush age 2) can be done much more effectively by other civ (IE haudenosaunee, russia, etc. ) while still being flexible.

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My concern about this statement from Forgotten Empires balance team, is that it doesn’t take elo in consideration.

You almost never see Aztecs at higher elo than 1k5, and that’s normal, player tends to play better and to know the game better.
You also almost never see Aztecs in tournaments (and when they do, it’s kind of sad to see their all-in coin flip strategy)

That said, I agree with you, and other people there.

I do think lower elo should also be taken into consideration for balancing, but then, this is why a “fondamental rework” is needed.

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Much like the Dev’s names, the Aztecs are a Forgotten Empire. So are the other two Native civs in general - the Lakota, Hauds, and Aztecs are all severely broken or flawed in fundamental ways to their gameplay that makes them useless beyond Age 2-3, and nothing more than a joke in treaty games.

All three need a complete rework from the foundation upwards, but since the Devs know they can’t turn a dollar from doing that, they’re not going to.

There is nothing any Infantry civ can do against Gatling Guns. With Coffee-Mill shipment, they are even better than Falconets, and counter even Cavalry and Artillery.

Unless you have Culverins, Gatling Guns will just destroy you.

Aztecs and Hauds are Rush dependent, and cannot compete at higher ELOs except with Cheese, but Lakota are just fine.
Lakota are the strongest of all the Warchiefs civs, by a lot. They can compete easily with othert civs, except Japan and Seden, because those are OP by design.

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Why not they add bow tower but with big range, that’s good defend. Also for Lakota and Hauds too.

Aztecs can get little bit buff for HP higher and add bow or throw spear units.

Give the Aztecs the Light Cannon, either as a default thing or as something from a Card.

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Captured Falconets as an Infinite card would be cool.
Light Cannon may be a bit too strong, and Hauds get it because they have no Long Range anti-Artillery unit, while Aztecs get Arrow Knights.

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Well i agree with you both.

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After Usa Update not only Aztecs but also Ottomans and other Euro civs needs it.

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Well Aztec got their mid to lategame buffed quite substationally in the latest patches with the card changes to cost less coin, Aztec mining being fixed and Great Chinampa to 20% gather rate for food/coin and moved to Age IV.

However for some reason the devs reduced the early unit shipments by 1 unit each, which is of course a massive deal.

So now everyone dropped Aztec since early aggresion and unit shipments was their only strategy. I could imagine if they reverted the nerfs to early unit shipments, people would go back to Aztec and maybe explore a more mid to lategame strategy with them. Sure they can’t boom like Brits or Sweden. But booming with exp dance and later fertility dance can give you some serious villager training. And with the buffs to mid to lategame they are a lot better if they can get to that point.

In conclusion they have potential in mid to lategame now, where they were lackign before. But buffing mid to lategame while nerfing earlygame? Thats not how I would do changes. You have to give players time to explore the game and not pre-emptively nerf something.

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The problem was that they needed some better artillery (and anti-artillery) than the Arrow Knight, which is rather sucky, hence I suggested Light Cannons, as they are both. If Light Cannons are too strong, they should get Captured Culverins instead, as the Arrow Knights primarily fail at being anti-artillery, rather than at taking down enemy buildings.

It does fail at both countering artillery and destroying building for a 2 pop unit and a high cost… At 36 siege atk every 6 sec and 2 pop, its super useless. Consider a mortar at 500 dmg every 6 sec for 4 pop. Pop wise you get 2(arrow knight for 4 pop) * 2(number of attack in 6 sec since they have rate of fire of 3) * 36 = 144. Pop wise it is impossibly bad. Ressource wise it is still really bad, they are less cost effective than a mortar at destroying building.

They should just make the arrrow knight cost effective vs artillery so it works as well as a culverin. For the same cost as a culverin, it should be as effective.

The strong point of aztecs is that most units cost 1pop giving them superiority of units. Maybe I would give them more bonus against artillery

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Yes, but a mass of arrow knights are more mobile and have a higher survivability rate than a Mortar. Also they are shipped at age III, can easily deal with the 2 falc shipment, and have a big button timing.

Not saying they are the best, but i kinda like them. I have way more problems with Coyotes and their survivability than with arrow knights

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If I remember correctly Aztecs have a 6 Arrow Knights card in III age. This card seems to be massively underpowered compared to 2 Falconets card. I’m 99% sure that 2 falconets will easily handle 6 Arrow Knights even in Stagger Mode.

But remember - Arrow Knights supposed to counter artillery! Aztecs do not have any other units with multiplier against artillery. So the result of this fight should be a convincing victory for Arrow Knights.
Unfortunately - it is not. Arrow Knight just needs a buff:

  • Maybe a bigger base damage?
  • Maybe a stronger multipliers?
  • Maybe a new technologies in the temples?
  • Or maybe decrease their x5.0 multipliers against artillery to x2.0 but change it to Siege Damage instead of Ranged Damage? That would bypass 75% resistance of artillery to ranged damage. It wouldn’t be that stupid - in fact it is a siege unit.
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