Hello, so I play team games quite a lot, and people pick Lithuanians pretty often. Now the problem is not on Arena or similar maps as fighting for relics can be pretty fair and you can limit them to 2-3 Relics.
Some gens of Mega Random have a lot of relics and there is no way of fighting for all of them so the Lithuanian players will 100% get 4 relics minimum. In castle age that’s pretty scary when you look at 10+6 knights running towards you. You will lose all of the fights in equal numbers, especially with flank archers.
Literally every game, I have to run with 40 knights into his base to destroy the monastery and then I can go back to my flank and kill those knights 11. And this is not possible all the time of course.
If Lithuanians can get +4 in Castle age, then give bonuses straight away to all the civs… ? Teutons armor right away in Castle age… ? Malians to their infantry? Of course not… it would be broken.
Perfect example of this was The Viper vs Villese on Dry Graveyard. Viper was Franks, Villese Lithuanians. Viper did everything right, he fought for the relics, he got some lost some, he had pretty much equal resources and numbers, but he could never engage in that fight, and he lost the game due to 1 forced fight… Which he lost obviously, because of the bonus in castle age.
If you say, well make pikes… Well he can also do that? Monks, he also has monks? Archers? He can kill that as well. Kill him in Feudal… not possible on every map.
Cant this be limited to +2 castle age and +2 imperial age? This makes it 4 total, but not broken in castle age.
While Lith can be too strong on certain Mega Random generations, they are also pretty weak on others (there are generations with just a single relic for 8 Players). Overall, they are not the worst balance problem for mega random by a long shot, because their bonus comes to play so very late. Civs with a ressource-specific gathering bonus are way more problematic, because that ressource can be either non-existant or in abundance. Mongols with 3 boars and 10 deer are an absolute menace, mongols on maps without any boars are pretty cute.
But thats just mega random for you. You can’t really balance a map that wants to be unpredictable, and id say thats part of the appeal.
Ok, you complain about a subset of a subset of games (TGs, and Megarandom maps). Even within this subset, very few maps on Megarandom have tons of relics. How is this different from, say, playing Mongols on Valley, Poles on Arena, Spanish on Nomad? TGs have tons of “civ wins” like these, Lithuanians aren’t even the worst example.
But even if we admit that Lithuanians are problematic, you have at least 3 options:
- pick Lithuanians yourself
- fight for the Relics (which is how you approach Lithuanians in 1v1, you can also tell your allies to coordinate in fighting for the relics!)
- do something slightly offmeta to counter the more powerful Knights like drop a 2x Monastery.
In any case, it sounds like a skill issue on your side. I don’t think Lithuanians need any changes, for TGs of all modes.
In that game Villese only got 2 relics, he never found the last one on the right corner. Leitis won that game if you asked me. Viper played the 3 games really bad, plus Villese played very well
So here is one example of that unfortunate fortunate map gen, and it’s not the only one. Mind you some of those spawn with no walls or with palisades, which requires aggression, and castle-age knights with +6… idk if there is any civ that can deal with that. I believe even camels die to that, especially with archer support.
In no shape or form is this civ bonus fair. In imp its not too hard to deal with it since its only +2 over the normal Paladin, but castle age is very hard to play.
How am i supposed to fight for relics here?
There is a reason most of the civs get +1 armor +1 range and such in each age, as it would be totally broken to see Briton xbows with max range right?
Side note, since i was Huns, and Huns UT has -50% to relic gold… what about we make Huns counter to Lith, making it Relics also -50% bonus for damage 11?
Why are you crying about balance on a map that never was supposed to be balanced?
Its not the map, its civ bonus. Name me one bonus on any map, that puts the opponent out of the game from the start?
Man the whole point of the relic bonus for Liths is to motivate both players to go and deny relics, something that before DE was very rare except maybe vs Aztecs. You have to remember you need to invest a monastery + monks (+upgrades) to accomplish such power, and that’s the win condition for Lithuanians that keep them competitive.
They lost BF so other civs with better boom and fast paced playstyle take advantage + make the Leitis the option to go vs melee units.
If you think that is broken then what about the obscenity called Poles, that have two eco bonuses + an insane castle age UT that esentially makes Knights a semi-trash unit to the poitn a late castle age Polish Knight spam is an uncounterable BS?.
You say to go and deny relics… I just mentioned and showed a map gen where that is not possible at all. Have you ever fought knights 10+6? Poles are regular knights, cheaper. You can fight that with something. And it comes in even later than relic bonus, its even bigger investment?
One map gen of a megarandom map, a map where some random generated map can also give unfair advantages to civs like Mongols (Lots of huntables=OP Mongols) or Gurjaras and Britons (Lots of herdables).
If Liths go all in relic boosted Knights then they will simply lag behind civs with stronger eco, how about Burgundian cavaliers then (that have guaranted +2 attack and insane eco behind that get to scuh point and yes they kill camels in 1v1 combats, or hell Bulgarians Knights with Stirrups that are just as scary??.
Alos you said Poles Knights are normal what 11111 go and check some pro games and see how the Poles Knight spam becomes uncounterable to many civs.
I think Aztecs or Burgundians are more powerful with relics and walls than Lithuanians
But Mongols on maps with 3 boars or a lot of deer are broken, similar to Britons and Tatars on maps with a lot of sheep (like ghost lake) and everything could happen in MegaRandom. All these civs will be ahead of you even before you can go pick the relics
Old Indians in maps with shore fish were broken
Mayans in any map are OP 11