Lithuanians +8

Anybody who watched today’s Dogao and Miguel vs Nikov and MBL match 3 could witness that getting plus 4 for heavy cav due to relics is borderline op. It’s just sick and too much. It should be reduced to 2 relics and a maximum of +2 damage.

There are many maps that have many relics that are also quite accessible. It often is not possible to not let the Lith get 2+ relics. Even if you focus on it very closely, you might not prevent it, but messed up your build because of it. In team games it is even easier for the Lith to get the relics as the team can help him. The effort of trying to prevent it is way greater than it is for the Lith to get them (and for what? You would just prevent them from getting a “bonus”, it’s not like that you will be automatically ahead because of it). Because it is not about having more relics than the Lith, but about preventing him from having any or at least not more than 1.

This bonus needs to be nerfed severely. It’s ridiculous. And “don’t let them get there” is not a valid counter tactic. If the Lith player is not dominated he will get relics and he will only become stronger the longer the match lasts. And you can even have a +6 in castle age. It’s just too strong.

Aside from that: Lith navy should be nerfed as well. They have a better navy than Celts, Franks, Teutons, Slavs, Bulgarians… although they historically didn’t have a navy worth mentioning. They should lose bracers and elite cannon ship at least and probably even more (like dry dock, which would put them somewhat on Teuton levels). Ferrari skirms with 10 pierce armor are strong enough, they do not need to have bracers. And heavy cav archers for Lith is a waste of resources since they don’t have parthian tactics and were not known for having great cav archers anyway. They were actually a civ of strong light cavalry. The heavy cavalry that fought for them for a period of time came from Poland.

Lithuanians are a late game civ and the relic bonus makes them potentially op. Not many games go into late game but if they do, Lithuanians should have a reasnoable bonus and not +3 or +4 madness for Paladins and their armor ignoring (stupid mechanic) low budget Leitis knights.

4 Likes

And yet winrates say the civ is perfectly balanced. So how do you plan to compensate lithuanians for nerfing a bonus that they have to work to get and can be taken away?

50% winrate at the highest level. Hardly game breaking despite your claims.

The same in team games.

Doesn’t seem right to nerf a bonus that you can have taken away when other civs can achieve better by researching a tech.

11 Likes

What are looking my eyes again 11
Instead of complaining about a bonus that’s balanced you can go and deny the relics, isn’t hard.
And as always say, 22 attack paladins still needs 4 hits to kill halbs, that’s it. Also go and bring here pros saying that relics should be nerfed.
Why no go and remove the +20HP% of Franks, +15% speed of Cumans, the 50% cheaper tech of Burgundians, the extra +2 melee armor of Teutons and the +2 attack vs archers of Persians to have a equal TG with Paladins?

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Nerfing should be nerfed

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Lith players can take relics before opponents because of its good scouting skill. Skillful play should be rewarded. This is the powerful yet unreliable bonus. It is never a guarantee to get 4 relics. +4 attack for melee units is way weaker than frank hp bonus or teutons armor bonus.

Their siege is almost the worst in the game. Their archer is not good either, missing arbalest and parthian tactics for CA. Their ranged units is so bad that there is no reason to remove bracers.

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Hera said in a video recently that it might be an interesting change to remove Hussar from Lithuanians. To make them play more around the paladin/leitis with relics identity. What do you think about that?

I think leitis is already incredibly niche, that the late game hera was referring to is incredibly infrequent, and lithuanians hussars are already very middle of the road. Why does it need nerfed?

You’re all being quite harsh. You can’t deny that when there are like 8 relics on the map and that the whole team gets +20% faster working monasteries, taking everything first looks much less of an option all of a sudden.

In 1v1 it’s different because with the civ’s lack of long term eco bonus, it’s hard to go for the relics asap while developing your eco to then get paladins/enough castles for leitis spam probs explains why this post is an exception in a sea of rants about Franks

Regarding the other points:

Bracer: Lith HCA are actually OK. Not the go to ofc but still a nice novelty option. They also do make sense cuz of the interaction between Lith/steppe civs (I mean why do you think they are a “Last Khans” civ) They even had parthian tactics in the beta. And do their skirms need bracer? Yes, they are one of the only three civs that can actually fight mass mangudai with skirms effectively, we don’t need this number to go down.

Navy: I suppose Teutons have a bad navy because back in the AoK days, they deemed the farm bonus good enough of an eco bonus for water play (especially since they expected the players to play Continental lol).
Lith meanwhile have been designed 20 years later, which means everyone realized the starting food bonus is screaming “play me on water maps like you play Mongols” (said Mongol navy wasn’t the most sucessful navy irl either btw) So they gave them a decent navy so that they could be played this way. It’s not that good btw, Magyars have a better one despite being a landlocked nation 11

Light cav: well on release they did benefit from the relic bonus, but it was too much so it was removed

Leitis: incoming controversy about UUs anyway they do have downsides compared to paladins while having more upsides than they had on release so ig it got better?

5 Likes

Maybe but team games are a mess as is. And lithuanians remain balanced in team games regardless of the ability to 4 relic the bonus. Furthermore how do you keep them solid when you nerf the bonus? Especially from a team game perspective the relic bonus is the only thing they got.

Totally bad, Why remove Hussar from a civ that’s generic?

Winrates are not a good criteria to know if a civ is balanced at TG, at least not alone.

Even burgs at +1650 seems balanced at TG, and probably if You get rid of the relics bonus lith winrate won’t change.

I personaly think they need a nerf, especially since the HC…

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Literally there only team game applicable military bonus. Hard fo think they wouldn’t be impacted.

Well, looks like FE decided it was worth making something about it, the list of balance changes aimed at TG is quite big now. I suppose if Lith somehow manage to become the next Burmese/Indian/Khmer a nerf would happen.

Ofc it would. Besides the obvious instances were you win with 4 relics, being stuck with both their midgame and no bonus on cav anymore would be a massive nerf.

HC4 had so many hybrid maps that favoured Lithuanian, and the civ draft system made it so that you actually had to think about taking civs that can do several things at once, rather than only playing Japanese on the Japanese map, Persian on the Persian map and so on like it happened in HC3.

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You can even see the ranked TGs and not all people is picking Lithuanians.

I think it’s mostly because people are too busy worshipping Frank winrate to play something else. And once you get to read people complaining they lose against Franks even after getting 4 relics you start questioning how they play Lith 11

Give any civ that isn’t at a dramatic civ disadvantage a four-relic advantage and there’s a good chance they’ll win.

Lithuanian Paladins aren’t even that good with four relics. Paladins naturally have 18 damage, so +4 attack is less than a 25% damage boost. As in, less than the number incorrectly listed as the Japanese bonus for twenty years which was actually smaller than the actual effect. The change in effective DPS is so non-dramatic, Bulgarian Cavaliers out-DPS them. And this is a bonus that affects two units in the entire civ.

Ever since they made the proper decision to strip the scout line of the relic bonus, the bonus has been more than fair. Especially given how if you contest the relics (which you should) you likely won’t be dealing with that problem.

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Chinese: S-tier civ for YEARS, Strong Eco for all games, broken in many tournament maps, OP uu, broad tech tree and more (People is conservative to nerf them, bUt cHiNa iS hArd tO mAnAgE aT Low level 11, pLs DoN’t mAkE tHeM bAd fOr the rest of the playerbase).
Lithuanians: A civ that only has a dark age bonus, a manual bonus and the fast trash, plus an UU that dies hard to mass archers (Oh mY gOd tO oP, pls nerf)

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Obviously they aren’t balanced for maps with a bunch of relics, but mongols aren’t balanced for maps with a bunch of hunt, or Frank’s for maps with a bunch of berries. That’s just how the game works.

For balance you’ve got to just zero in on 1v1 bonus on balanced maps like Arabia, 4 lakes, arena, or islands. And then do the best you can to address glaring imbalances in team games. This is not a glaring imbalance, and making a nerf to it will effect their 1v1 playability.

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Well, agree with that part, but remember that Indians fishermen bonus was greatly nerfed because they were way too strong at shore fish heavy maps, plus to allow more viability fro other civs in that maps.

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