Byz should also get eco bonus
Cries in SaracensâŠSad Mameluke noise.
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Equalizer is that you
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Byz are bad in tegames because they barely have a FU unit to field. If they do then without any combat bonus means their pop efficiency is one of the worse in game for their army, besides cataa but they have their own problems.
So Byz will in my opinion never be a good team game civ even with a new eco bonus. Too bad archers without bonises for flanks, too bad booming and paladins for pocket. Cheap trash isnât that useful in teangames.
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But maybe cheap trash with bonusses? If the whole team gets that trash bonus, maybe they can use it to their advantage. Maybe the flanks wouldnât be as dependent on their pockets helping them out?
So the pocket could just boom more or get the tech advantage because the flanks need less help?
I mean itâs theoretical, but it could possibly change the teamgame meta a bit, just making the flanks less vulnerable as they have more tools to defend themselves.
The late byzantine empire was very reliant on foreign mercenaries. Maybe a bonus inspired by that could be found that gives them new pop efficient gold unit option
How about supplies can be researched twice
I actually like the Idea of a gold related bonus actually. Something like sultans would fit that civ very nicely, as it would also encourage you to make more use of trash units early on.
But I donât think Byz need much help in 1v1. Maybe a trade related bonus could help for teamgames, but I donât know which would make sense. Their biggest weakness is early in teamgames also, where trade isnât even a thing.
I still like the Idea of making the trash discount a team bonus. This could make byz a possible pocket civ: While the flanks try to force the opponents into infantry, they could boom and go imp for a possible cataphract killer blow. Or just spam cheap camels while the flanks make a lot of reduced skirms to deal with archers. I think this could possibly a new scenario in teamgames that would make it much more variable than that currently very stale meta.
I think the amount for TG would have to be lowered. With 25% discount for whole team, you could exploit some very silly things in game
So I guess it would have to be split and partially bonus to self only. and partially to TG bonus.
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Maybe, Maybe it can be split in 15% team, 10 % remainder.
But donât forget that trash is very bad in teamgames for good reason. As knigh/archer is just so insanely strong. IDK if even 25 % would change that state. It would need to be checked if it would be OP with certain civ bonusses and techs, for sure.
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I donât like the idea of unit discount team bonuses. Thatâs completely new territory I wouldnât want to step on balance wise. Make a civ team game viable just for the team onus to bring along also sounds quite unfun to me to play
But how you want to adress it otherwise?
Byz whole design is around trash and the cataphract to shred infantry, the main counter to trash.
Both are basically completely useless in teamgames.
So how you want to adress that teamgame issue without giving them the best teamgame bonus compensating for them being the worst teamgame civ as all bonusses they have are basically useless in teamgames?
Do you want to rebrand the whole civ?
More or less yes. I would rather buff them in a way the civ individually is fun to play and can pull its own weight, instead of boosting ally into nirvana while still ducking itself. Just donât like that design idea for balance.
IF we give them supplies cns be researched twice, in imperial age byzantine could spam 30 food, 20 gold champions without the last attack upgrade. They arenât a infantry civ so far so this is a rebrand indeed. But I donât think this would be op and it would be a fun late game strat for byz to spamm champs similar to goths.
I am not sure if that would really fix anything. What purpose do you feel the cheaper Champions will fill that the Byz civ current canât do?
They should get blast furnace and a solid eco bonus like no wood for eco upgrades. I think thatâll do
Cata is really expensive, i said the same when they made the upgrades cheaper, i told you it wouldnât make the unit more common, cause the unit cost is higher and their output damage isnât great vs non infantry line.
But the cata doesnât need a single boost, cause it does its intended job, it counters militia line and it does win consistent vs that.
The existence of balance design aberration such as the leitis and coustillier makes the unit look poor and terrible priced against those units, cause those units donât have a well designed role in the game they are just high output damage and really cheap units with cheaper upgrades, but well keep defending silly leitis design, so people will ask for old civs upgrades- 300 gold 200 food cost to make things balancedâŠor you know+2 attack here or+armor there until we end playing another game.
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Well, thatâs the Vietnamese bonus alreadyâŠ
I really love the idea of giving them +25 of each resource at the start of the game. This would strengthen their defensive identity by being able to build a Tower and a TC, plus make it possible to drush without going to gold, plus giving a tiny early game flexibility with the food and wood. In addition that would also have some historical background, since Byzantines were the remnants of the Eastern Roman Empire and thus deserve to have some Dark Age bonus.
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- You know that Iâm not him.
I think more than half of the civ are just not good in TG. Even the mighty Aztecs is not a good choice in TG.
I was thinking about the same. How about the free Town Watch? New free Town Patrol can stay as a civ bonus.
Or Berbers in pocket.
Vietnamese.
And Eagles.
FU halberdiers are better countered by champions or cannoneers honestly, which also counter eagles and militia line for a lot less price and without needing a castle, talking about halbs and militia only, even arbs do good, and Byz ones are FU.
For the enemy halberdier being FU is crucial as only with the last armor it survives 2 hits from a Cataphract (except the Viking pikeman).
Honestly Cataphract is so niche that if the Byz didnât lack blast furnace I doubt people would have even bothered to use it.
As it stands it annihilates just Goths (which have â â â â cavaliers/archers AND miss the last inf armor upgrade), because Malians can beat it easily with farimba cavaliers, actually any FU cavalier beats E.Cata 1v1. Malian and Bulgarian cavalier also beats Byz Pala 1v1.
Itâs a shame as the Byzantine Empire is imho the real symbol of the middle ages.
Winged Hussars are not even remotely comparable to Cataphracts as this video shows:
WINGED HUSSAR vs EVERY UNIQUE UNIT | AoE II: Definitive Edition - YouTube
Go to 0:26. Cataphracts dominate them easily and Winged Hussars are even weaker to Arrow fire than regular ones due to missing the last Armor Upgrade.
This doesnât even allow them to properly fulfill the roles they should excel at, i.e. countering archers and raiding amidst defensive structures.
In the test you can also see that they could not kill a single Teutonic Knight or not even one Indian Archer Elephant despite their attack bonus against them.