Make Armenians Historic Again



Disclaimer: No pretence of balance! It’s meant as an example of historical authenticity.

TLDR: “Armenians” dont have enough Armenian flavour, nothing about the civ design is recognisable as Armenian except the fortified monastery. Its especially painful as even legacy civilizations with goofy designs are getting reworked for the sake of authenticity. It is very disappointing for history enjoyers and to those of us who have waited 25 years for this addition. Not even the UU has an Armenian name…(Netadzik).

The current “Armenians” civ does not represent its historic namesake, without this label it would be impossible to guess that it was inspired by the medieval Armenians. The civ designs resembles more so the Swiss Confederation and the Venetian Republic than the Kingdom of Cilicia! Bagratid Armenia fielded the Ayrudzi, which was the name for the cavalry corps ‘numbering one hundred thousand’, composed entirely of nobles who fought as horse archers and cataphracts. It is said that ‘Cilicia could muster seventy thousand knights’, exaggerations I am sure but illustrative nonetheless. Then why are they a naval and infantry civ?

The excuse for this apparent contradiction is that the civ design is based on Cilicia rather than Bagratid Armenia: Yet this highly ironic, Cilician society was even more feudal than Bagratid Armenia, it became a fascinating hybrid by adopting many Latin customs including chivalry. The traditional great estates were broken up and parcelled out to manor lords in order to provide for the training of as many knights as possible in the Frankish style, there was no place within the institutional military for commoners beyond the city and palace guard. That’s why Armenians of this period served as professional infantry under Byzantine, Seljuk and Arab command yet infantry never formed a significant part of their own military composition.

Furthermore the “Cilician fleet” was merely a merchant marine which at best hunted pirates in coastal waters, it is absurd and cruel to call Armenians of all people a naval civ. The focus on monks is also inappropriate because whilst stubbornly Christian they never proselytized extensively beyond the Caucasus, and the Warrior Priest is of course complete fiction. Meanwhile Cilician fortifications had dazzled the crusaders and Cilician engineers helped them extensively with sieges, yet this isn’t included in the civ design at all.

My rework is just for inspiration no pretence of balance, elaborated:
-Armenians have been famous for their smithing since the bronze age, they furnished many empires with their armouries.
-Walled Orchards were and still are an iconic part of Armenia’s economic life, much more authentic than the totally generic mule cart technologies.
-Nakharars were the great houses of the nobility who could afford to fight as cataphracts and for which they were renowned.
-Merchant marine of Cilicia represented by militarisation of civilian ships.
-Trade cart bonus to represent the powerful network of Armenian merchants.
-Fortified monasteries were utilized as forts out of necessity during periods of foreign occupation.
-Trebuchets represent the great workshops and engineers of Cilicia.

If you would like to read the great comments discussing the balance issues check the og post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/1jhgy5f/make_armenians_historic_again/

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“Cataphract Archer” sounds very interesting, but:

  • Arrows dealing splash damage, replacing Logistics, means Nakharars would handle mass archers better than Cataphracts.
  • They’d be better against heavy cavalry than Cataphracts since they can kite, unlike Cataphracts.
  • They’d deal with infantry much more efficiently.
  • They would negate the bonus damage from Halberdiers, Kamayuks, Camels, Camel Archers, and Genoese Crossbows.

That sounds overpowered. It’s essentially like massively reducing two major weaknesses of Cataphracts. Only Ballista Elephants, Elephant Archers, Hussite Wagon or War Wagons could likely deal with them efficiently, unless Nakharar’s other stats are reduced.

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Very nice, I agree, their lack of historical accuracy is mind-boggling.

I already replied to your reddit thread actually. The fine balance of the proposed changes doesn’t matter as much as the idea of change itself. They deserve this.

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Thanks for the feedback how would you balance it, perhaps with lower speed?

:handshake:
There is less interest on this board unfortunately

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Armenia became a new state of US like Georgia?

LoL just joking.

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It would be hard to balance such a unit without extensive testing since we don’t have a similar ranged unit that deals AoE damage for comparison.

At the very least, they shouldn’t perform better than fully upgraded heavy cavalry archers against every type of unit.

Maybe it’s niche is to be the anti horse archer horse archer, whilst being too slow to escape light cav, trading mobility for pierce armor?

But at the same time I prefer it. People on reddit are way, way, way more hostile to new ideas. It’s all just memes there

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You are right about reddit, this place has higher quality discussion. Still surprising that so few care about historicity.

“higher quality”

True!

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I think the Cataphract should be a regional unit that is being shared between the Byzantines and Armenians. Replaces the Knight Line at the stable.

They get Bloodlines and Blast Furnace but no Logistica.
Which makes them more general purpose then the Byzantine version but less powerful against Infantry.

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LoL make all unique units regional for Europe - Cataphract, Boyar, Organ Gun, Missionary.

Some of the early UUs were units types that were used my many civilisations but that didn’t matter much since there were only 12 civs.
Some are certainly very fitting for the civ though. Samurai are obviously Japanese for example.

Some that could be regional or even generic units:

  • Throwing Axeman
  • Huskarl
  • War Elephant (we have Battle Elephants now though)
  • Slinger
  • Elephant Archer (Actually become a regional unit)
  • Imperial Camel Rider
  • Boyar
  • Camel Archer
  • Genitour
  • Organ Gun
  • Caravel
  • Imperial Skirmisher
  • Camel Scout
  • Legionary (Just Romans and Byzantines)
  • Warrior Priest (Just Armenians and Georgians)

Just because they could doesn’t mean they should.

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Armenians eerent the first insult to historical accuracy tbh

For sure. The Ethiopians were also anomalous with their inexplicably top-tier siege.

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Tbh I wouldnt mind the Armenians as much if they at least had good-ish cavalry and siege, but its terrible…

And an archer focus at least seems to be way more historical than this

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