Make Asian civs more 19th century-ize to fit AOE3DE

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
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I think the current devs intend to make this game historical period forward to the 19th century, so here’s my suggestion for Asian civs.
But I won’t mention much about India because British raj a sensitive topic.

1.Japanese can start from Bakumatsu (1853), or from Meiji era(1868).
If choose the former, current models can continue to be used, and don’t need to change the design.
If choose the latter, the models of Japanese buildings and military units should be replaced with European styles, to reflect the influence of western culture on Meiji era.

2.Replace monks with bureaucrats because Asian civs have long tradition of bureaucracy.
Sohei Archer → Bugyo(奉行) if Bakumatsu, or Kaitakushi(開拓使) if Meiji
Shaolin Master → Qinchai(钦差)

3.Change consulate allies options.
Japanese consulate should remove all the options, include the Japanese Isolation, and replace it with British, Germans, Russians, and United States(provides the same building wagons as Dutch, but different armies).
Yes, this new list is too repetitive with the Chinese consulate allies, so one solution is to limit the number of times a player can choose a consulate allies in each game.

4.Replace wonders with signs of modernization, but acceptable to change only the model without change bonuses.
For example, Summer palace can be replaced by Kaiping diaolou, which is a kind of private fortress in southern China from 19th century, with the introduction of western architectural design, and is on the World Heritage List.
Another example, Great buddha can be replaced by Rokumeikan, which was a foreign pavilion in the Meiji era, used to entertain diplomatic envoys, so it is very suitable for providing the bonuses of see all enemies’ LOS, same as Great Buddha.

5.Add more fake rev cards, because Asian civs are not feasible to make rev options available as European.
Fake rev cards mean cards like Tupac Rebellion in Inca, and Belgian Revolution in Dutch.
For example, Chinese already have Boxer Rebellion card, so just need to add an effect that converts villagers to boxers, a Javanese Spearmen-like unit.
Satsuma Rebellion can be a historical material for Japanese fake rev cards.

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i strongly disagree, while there has been a faction creep towards the 1800s the game is still meant to represent 1500 to the mid 1800s roughly.

japans most important periode here was the sengoku jedai which ended around 1600 with the battle of sekigahara. the units all depict this era, ashigaru, samurais, bows. if it was suppose to be the 1850s the units would look more line infantry like.

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I don’t think the devs are making the game more 19th century. I just think they are adding more features towards the end of the period to balance out the base game being more early century themed.

Also completely reworking three entire civs is an extremely naive thing to really expect to happen.

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I think the most practical thing would be to do a rework of the “Meiji Restoration” so that, instead of being a Consulate technology, it is a revolution similar to “Revolutionary France”, and that ideas like the ones you propose are implemented there.

In this “Meiji Restoration” the Ashigaru Musketeers can be replaced by soldiers like the ones from the movie “The Last Samurai”, and Gatlings can be obtained from the US Consulate, so you can recreate the final battle from that movie if you want.

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yeah, just allow Japan to enable Kiheis and Shotais somehow and the issue would be mostly addressed. Well, more modern ships I guess, but it’s difficult to add many more modern Japan units unless you start pulling deep references like the Rocket Launchers Japan used during the Russo-Japanese wars.

There’s little to do about the cavalry, not only because finding names for the 19th century Japanese cavalry isn’t trivial, but because Naginata weren’t cavalry weapons to begin with, so that should be fixed in the first place.

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I’m all for getting rid of the weird “religious heroes” concept for Asians.
Those models can still be reused. Just assign them to the respective religious sites like African/American “native heroes”, Shaolin master to Shaolin, sohei archer to Zen (maybe give it a better name to distinguish from the regular sohei, like abbot), brahmin to Bhakti. The sites need better names as well.

The heroes can keep their original abilities but renamed/remodeled to something like officials or lords.

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I’ve been requesting this for ages

Same for replacing wonders. With more generic buildings instead of specific ones, for example.

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Umm Religious heroes ? Like ?

If you are reffering the explorers they are pretty much fine for all 3 TAD civs,

Just to be clear they are not “religious”, they are respected class of the community like a : saints / gurus / spiritual explorers / philosphers etc.

Once the buddhism Started in India out of Hinduism, and eventually spread to Japan via China, it took various forms etc in these respective regions. There was great cultural exchange between 3 civs as various monks / learned men come to study In Bodhgaya, Nalanda and Taxila universities, and many monks priests go out to preach / research spiritual/geographical etc. subjects.

So . . as an oversimplification attempt . . .

  • Shaolin Monk is a monk.

  • Sohei archers are, monks that were also accomplished archers.

  • Brahmin are the class / priests that follow a particular stream of Hinduism in persuit of knowledge. And back in days group of brahmins at times used to travel with an elephant.

IMO they represent the Idea of these “Civilisation” better, than the idea of a particular empire, To represent a Empire we have the respective emperors of the civs. Meanwhile the officials and lords are very local to a particular place and do not enjoyed the universal stature of a monk/saint etc.

Yes these cards are fun cards but limited to use though :stuck_out_tongue: Like the Indian card that converts all vills to sepoys for 2000w.

I think they chose the wonders that are most famous and relevant locally at those and current times. But yea if provided better suggestions the models can be changed

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OP knows that the devs have access to the engine and can just, you know, allow these civs to get Revolutions if they want, right?

The other thing is that, while having warrior monks as explorers is kinda weird for Asians, having Bureaucrats, out of all people, is somehow an even more absurd notion. At least the monks are coded as martial artists (or have an elephant fighting for them I guess). But what’s a bureaucrat even gonna do to defeat treasure guardians? Write a sternly worded letter?

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The most needed change in Japan is the Meiji Restoration of the consulate lock option. Now it’s useless technology. No one would choose to upgrade to age 5 with expensive tea leaves without any rewards. Meiji Restoration Technology should be redone. Or send a factory.

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The problem with China right now is that it has too many Ming or Yuan Mongol units. Missing military units from the Qing dynasty. Should add unlimited manchu cards to China or make manchu unlockable for training. As the ruler of the Qing Dynasty, he could not command manchus to fight. I think it’s a ridiculous thing. In addition, the rattan shied of the current Shaolin unit can also be issued a unique tiger shied in China.
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Those are clearly religious.

A problem I and a lot of other people have with Asian civs in AoE3 is they’re laser focused on religion. Religiob was also important in the other continents, yet you don’t see other civs getting monks/priests as explorers (except Mexicans, but they have an actual justification for that).

You can’t say “respected class” and expect people to accept that.

Not to mention Brahmins aren’t warriors

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But what’s a bureaucrat even gonna do to defeat treasure guardians? Write a sternly worded letter?

You have a misconception about the bureaucracy in ancient Asia.
Especially in East Asian societies, local officials were also commanders of militias, and senior officials were often sent to the front lines, to command troops in combat, even if they were civilians.

In Confucianism, the requirements to become a gentleman included archery and driving a chariot. And to be an official in East Asia, Confucianism is something that must be studied and practiced physically.

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Just to be clear they are not “religious”, they are respected class of the community like a : saints / gurus / spiritual explorers / philosphers etc.

In the historical period simulated by TAD, only Tibetans and Mongols would agree with what you say.
The persecution of Hinduism by Mughal Muslims, and of Buddhism by secular rulers in China, is well known.
Even in Japan, the Shogunate’s hostility to Catholics and forcing people to believe in Buddhism, made monks one of the most hated groups of Japanese people at that time.

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A better idea would be to change the Meiji Restoration to the Japanese version of Tupac Rebellion, replace all military units with their European counterparts.

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@KozakawaRio @RatcicleFan

Those persecutions and atrocities doesnt eradicate the fact that the civilisational identity still remains and hence these three civilisations. and the current explorers represent that.

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That’s not an argument. There’s no reason why religious figures should lead armies, especially in tje setting of AoE3.

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On the issue of universality, I can say with a high degree of certainty that you have completely reversed the positioning of monks and bureaucrats.
In Asian bureaucracy, even a common official can have the same generous treatment as a European nobleman, except that he cannot be hereditary.
Please don’t think of the Hindu and Buddhist monks of the time as being like Christian bishops or priests.

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They are not the Military Leaders, they are explorers / navigators etc.

The ruler of those civs in the game are Akbar, Tokugawa etc.

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It’s not easy to change the Chinese military units under banner army mechanic.
I think China should reduce the variety of military units, and add Tuanlian(团练) similar to Conscription of United States, or New Army similar to Ottoman Nizam.