Don’t mistake powerful for interesting. You can really, really easily make a powerful unit; just give it a lot of attack, HP, and speed. Making an interesting unit is much more difficult. That’s why I really advocate for getting +1 damage per kill; that way, you need to think through your strategy, and use them to kill a bunch of weak units before engaging stronger enemies.
Fast, tanky infantry? Seems a pretty straightforward comparison to me, especially given the infantry damage component is mostly secondary as they currently stand. I want the infantry bonus to be front and center, via the +1 damage per kill bonus, which heavily encourages players to use it on enemy infantry early on before transitioning onto other units later on.
a) this wouldnt fix their issue of dying too fast to anything ranged
b) if you ever get it going it is compeltely snow-bally
c) please no, this doesn’t feel like aoe2. we don’t give units experience and level ups
their performance against melee units is not the issue. they already beat most melee infantry
Talking about Jaguar Warriors, they are infantry UU with above average HP (65/75). They move quite fast (1.1) like Samurai and Axeman, slightly slower than Huskarl and Berserk (1.16), while foot-archers have 0.96 movement speed. So far, they have received 2 pierce armor buff from 0 to 1 then 1 to 2. They perform well against most of infantry, except Samurai, Teutonic Knight, or even Aztecs Champion. Their late game stats seem solid;
12+8 attack
5/6 armor
75 HP (they take 4 hits from HC to die, similar with Samurai, Woad Raider, Berserk, etc)
+11 bonus damage vs. infantry
and their creation time is more reduced with the civ bonus.
However, if it happens, it is in late game situation. Jaguar Warriors have Rate of Fire of 2.0 similar with most of infantry, BUT they have the slowest Attack Delay of 0.8 so that they might receive one more hit from most of melee units and are worse at hitting microed ranged units. Furthermore, they require castles when Aztecs have the weakest castle in the game. In addition, Aztecs Champions can also do what Jaguar Warriors can do with less resources. Lastly, if they already go for Jaguar Warriors, then what? They are specialized against infantry, but still pretty weak against counter units or heavy cavalry.
If Jaguar Warriors really need some changes, here I can propose some:
Jaguar Warriors base movement speed increased from 1 to 1.05, similar with Huskarls and Berserks, allowing them to chase foot ranged-units slightly easier
Jaguar Warriors Rate of Fire reduced from 2.0 to 1.9, this would be good since they will have faster Reload Time than most of infantry when their Attack Delay still remains the slowest (Thus, they do not take one more hit from infantry anymore)
Elite Jaguar Warriors melee armor increased from 2 to 3. They will have 3+3/2+4 armor. This will specialize them more against infantry or even heavy cavalry
To offset those, their bonus damage vs. infantry is reduced by 1 (10 to 9/11 to 10)
Setting aside the civ bonuses, I am also concerned with Atlalt technology. Their skirmishers already lack Ring Archer Armor and Thumb Ring unlike Incas and Mayans which both also have access to Halberdier. Andean Sling and Hul’che Javelineers are also relatively cheaper than Atlatl. It can be an option to add one small bonus to that technology, as follows:
Atlatl gives skirmisher +1 attack & +1 range, projectile speed faster. This will synergize their long range.
They’re already relatively decent against ranged; as good as any infantry that aren’t anti-archer specialists, at least. They get free Gambesons, and superior speed. But they’re not meant to counter ranged, and that’s okay.
The fact they do not counter ranged or siege is why they wouldn’t become snowbally. Even skirmishers could take them out, given time, and the more kills they’d have, the more valuable that kill would become.
There have been plenty of things that haven’t existed before that have since been added. Charge attacks are the most notable in my mind. Add it, and people will get over it.
Much the contrary, the ability to raid is one of the most common ‘special’ abilities there is. That makes it, almost by definition, the opposite of interesting.
I think having 15 more HP than a Champion more than qualifies.
Its not a last tier, rather a mid tier civ, great for aggressive settings and weak for passive ones. That’s good balance.
Of course the militia line usability is making several infantry civs look subpar but Aztecs, Malay, Incas and Vikings are good despite that.
Jaguars just face the same problem as several other infantry uu - not being clearly a big advantage over champion in imperial age. This is a problem for other infantry uu like samurai, urumi swordsmen, berserk as well. Imo those units should have more hp, lower elite upgrade cost.
Anyways a feasibility related buff for Jaguars and a slight buff for militia line like a predecessor to squires for 50 food in feudal age could be a good change. But I wouldn’t buff Aztecs in any other way.
Between the high Elo 1600+ which represents 1% of the the active player base, they are ok, and are at the bottom of the top tiers (10th position).
I think it’s better to judge the performance of civ regarding the average Elo or the 900 - 1200 Elo. It’s not very relevant to take conclusion from the 1% of players 1600+
No it was about buffing them vs ranged infantry units. They are already doing very well against melee infantry. Last time I tried, only TK were stronger.
How about giving them the Hindustani treatment.
The Hindustani villager bonus was too good when it started at 10%, then it was changed to 5% which made the civ a lot worse. Now it starts at 8%.
The Aztecs were too strong when they had the +5 carry bonus but now with the +3 carry bonus they are to weak.
Giving them a +4 might be the perfect balance.
According to aoestats the Aztecs mostly struggle in short matches, while their winrate is almost ### ## #### games.
So they need an early game bonus.
Larger carry capacity is mostly an early game bonus because Wheelbarrow and Hand Cart reduce the impact of the bonus on the late game.
I’m not against buffing the Jaguar Warrior though, it is always nice to see more UU usage.
My suggestion for them is make them regain some HP (at last 10HP but not more then 25HP) for every kill.
That would make them better in larger fights against weaker units like the Spear Line.
If you take team games, all elo included then it shows that they are very good in early game, bad at castle age, then good at early imperial age. Late game, they gradually become worst and worst.
It’s also show than no one wants to play Aztecs now
Unpopular idea. Give Aztec monk an aura effect over infantry units. Regen and buffing speed and RoF are taken by Romans and Sarracens. Maybe take %50 less bonus damage? Mainly affect HCs
ok interesting that they are worse in late game in Team Games but better in 1v1.
But the game is still primarily balanced around 1v1.
That makes them harder to balance.
Giving them an early game buff would make them potentially too strong in Team Games but giving them a late game buff would not be a good idea for 1v1.
They area already pretty strong on closed maps. They could use a bonus for open maps.
Their Monks are already the best Monks in the game, they don’t need more bonuses.
That’s why I suggested to slightly buff their early to mid game by giving them +1 carry capacity.
This bonus would still slightly help them in late game too because they would still get a little more resources.
My preferred solution would be to give them a new unique or regional (shared with Mayan but not Inca) unit in the Archery Range that replaces the Cavalry Archer that they can’t train.
Could be kinda too similar to Plumed Archers though.
