Make Camel Scout a Regional Unit?

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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So this topic came up in someone’s civ design thread, but I think it would be an interesting idea generally: Make the Gurjara’s Camel Scout unit available to civs with strong camels - Saracens, Hindustanis, Berbers, Malians, and possibly some others, as well as any future camel-dominant civs of Africa or Asia.

Regarding the “unique” designation, yes, this is technically a “unique unit” in that only 1 civ gets it currently, so I’m sure some people will oppose this idea on that basis. But let’s not pretend that the Gurjaras wouldn’t be plenty unique without exclusivity of the camel scout, given that they still have 2 other (actual) unique units with crazy gimmicks, and some pretty radical bonuses. And the way the camel scout is actually designed is more like a regional or generic unit, especially given that it literally upgrades into a fully generic unit in Castle Age, so the designation of it as the Gurjaras 3rd UU has always seemed a little wonky. And this also wouldn’t be the first time a unique unit has become a regional unit (pre- DOI Elephant Archer).

I also think it would be interesting if there were 3 basic scout types, each of which were shared by several civs (Scout, Eagle, Camel). This could lead to more varied Feudal gameplay, and I think is worth considering given the large amount of interest people have expressed in having more visually appropriate regional units (or skins). This could also be a way of giving some mid-tier civs (Berbers, Saracens, Malians) a small buff.

Along a similar line of reasoning, there’s also the possibility of making the Imperial Camel a semi-regional upgrade, like Paladin or Winged Hussar for Camel civs. However this would be viable in fewer cases given how many strong camel bonuses there are that would make stacking with Imp Camel prohibitive, and I’m less attached to the idea overall. But it belongs in the same conversation anyway, as a generic upgrade that could be used for multiple civs.

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im more interested in having camel scout having some tiny bonus damage of some kind but given that it has 70 hp, clearly needs some rework.

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Interesting idea. I’m not sure if I’d go as far as making it a generic Feudal version of the camel for all civs, but maybe it could be explored as a unit for some other civs. If it was a regional unit, it would only be a thing for the Indian civs, so I’m not sure if regional unit is the right term here.

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There’s a possibility for stat tweaks for sure, but TBH I haven’t considered the unit in enough depth to come to a conclusion other than that it seems fine for now.

Sure. And there’s the possibility of it just being available to some civs in Feudal who may start with a scout cav, so then it just becomes defined by tech tree. I also definitely don’t think all civs that can train camels should get this, although camel-dominant civs are strong contenders, but like any tech/unit availability, balance concerns are also at play.

I say regional or semi-regional, and I agree that there’s probably a better designation out there, but this is a widely used term that gives an ~okay approximation of what I’m talking about here. A lot of people consider the Eagle Warrior a regional unit, although the Andes and Mesoamerica are clearly very different regions. There’s also the matter of SE Asia and (some) Indian civs sharing the BE, also considered regional.

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That’s because regional unit refers to architecture as well I think. I would say it’s just based on architecture, but you have Steppe Lancers. Other than that, I think all the regional units do fall into their various architecture sets.

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doesnt matter, precedent has been set, iaw camel scouts could be regional and belong to numerous architecture sets and wouldnt be anything new in those terms

i think its a great idea, i wouldnt give it to strong camel civs specifically, but definitely spread it around some more

i think saracens is a good idea, but then the civ bonus only applies from castle age, otherwise it becomes an issue to balance

i would actually give it to ethiopians for example, because their camels are specifically bad, meaning having the camel scout means much less (less oppressive) than for example giving it to hindus (definitely would not give them camel scouts)

i think this is an interesting choice, since the player can choose to pre-mass camels OR get a discount and wait for castle age.

on a similar note, maybe camel scout to camel should get a minor upgrade fee, otherwise its just a straight buff to various civs (although i think its 100% fine on saracens because they’re such a hard civ to play even if they arent the weakest)

i like this idea, but how would you balance it? for example it could work on ethiopians without becoming overly oppressive, but who else? berbers and malians would likely be OP.

ethiopians, persians and turks? depending on how you look at it, it actually fits persian “full stable” theme, along with their “best cavalry theme” in the form of the WE, and paladin, following the same logic imp camel.

turks are already super strong on arena, but not due to camels, so maybe it could work? and then obviously eth camels are the worst, so giving them imp camel could hardly be OP (lack BL and plate barding)

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Yep, also BE is shared among 3 different architectural sets.

Indeed. I’m still hoping they get nerfed a little more than the PUP would indicate, but certainly they would need to lose something beyond that to get camel scout, so it’s not at all necessary for them.

I think it’s appropriate for at least some of the civs I mentioned without alteration, but could also be tweaked. I also think there’s some potential to give Camel Scout to Cumans, given their identity of getting some things early (but being the only camel civ to lack the Heavy upgrade).

Persians and Ethiopians are very strong contenders for this IMO, especially since Persians have been power-creeped out of their old identity of having a full stable, and this would spice up their play somewhat, which is something people have been asking for. And Ethiopian Imp Camel would be like Celt Paladin - situational, but with some utility. Turks I’m less sure about, but its a possibility. Beyond that there may be a future African civ where this would be a good idea. Berbs and Malians of course don’t need it any more than they need Paladin. Giving Imp Camel to some civs would also be an indirect way of slightly nerfing some powerful civs, like Chinese, without taking anything away from their tech tree.

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Really charming idea!
I agree that the Camel Scout would fit especially well to the cultural identity and gameplay of Saracens, Berbers, and Malians. Players can start massing camels already in Feudal and thus exploit later camel bonuses better.
Turks and the Steppe peoples (Mongols, Tatars, Cumans) with their Light Cav focus + Persians should keep normal Scout Cav as starting units, although adding Camel Scout to the tech tree could be interesting for one or the other. E.g. Turks could mix in camels vs. (mirror) Scout rushs.
Hindustanis should not have Camel Scout due to their already strong camelos, while for Chinese, camels are just one of many options in their versatile tech tree and not their core identity, so they wouldn’t need it. Ethiopians have free Pikes and no camel bonuses, so I am not sure if it makes sense for them.
For Byzantines, Camel Scouts would fit to their focus on counter units and defence. They could train cheaper camels already in Feudal, arguably interesting vs. Scout or even Knight rushs.

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