Make china great (early) but less great (late)

Let’s get to it.

China is slow and a lot about getting booming. Once china hits it’s stride its over… no other civ has a higher late game win rate like china’s.

I suppose a few things to help china stabilize sooner but NOT have the same current peaks.

  1. All landmarks cost 70% of the standard value:
    Feudal landmarks-280f 140g
    Castle landmarks- 840f 420g
    Imperial landmarks-1680f 840g

This alone will tremendously speed up china’s progression and establishing positioning. The time saved here is huge!!!

  1. China’s dynasty bonuses will STACK not replace. So instead of replacing tang with song buffs then song with yuan; china will now keep ALL unlocked dynasty buffs. It’s unfair that china has to pick and choose between buffs and unlocking units/builds meanwhile abbasid ottoman* and mali each get to have their cakes and eat it too. The only catch to this rendition of dynasty buffs is all of it wil be nerfed!!!

TANG DYNASTY LOS reduced to 10%
SONG DYNASTY villager production reduce to 18s
YUAN DYNASTY walk speed reduce to 10%
MING DYNASTY military hp bonus reduce to 5%

  1. More nerfs…
    Zhuge knu food cost increased to 40f but range increased to 5 tiles.
    (Buff nerf) Tax generation is now fix to being a flat 10% of resources dropped off instead of 1 tax per drop off. Double tax zones still applies. This is a nerf to BEE’s high micro forced tax generation trick; but a buff to deer tax and wheelbarrow villagers tax. The game tracks fractional resources gathered don’t worry!!

  2. Imperial officials in castle know get a speed boost ability whereby if they have been collecting taxes for 30s they get a 50% walk speed buff that remains for as long as they are collecting taxes uninterrupted. But lose that buff once re-tasked.

  3. In ming dynasty a new ability that will have a 4min cooldown but 1 min activation window will allow for all taxes generated inside that 60s will automatically be cached into your total gold.

FASTER age up; cheaper landmarks; faster dynasty; permanent dynasty buffs; weaker dynasty buffs; nerf-buff to zhuge knu, nerf-buff to taxes, new tax related gimmicks? What am i missing?

I don’t think the biggest problem for China at present is difficult to enter any dynasty.
In fact, in most cases, China can enter the Song Dynasty steadily by relying on the BBQ. And with IQ and Chukonu, they could be very tough in Age2.
What’s more ,the rewards from the dynasties are not excessive in the current game, only the combination of the Yuan Dynasty and palace guards seems exceeding a bit, so Relic nerf palace guards on their gold costing in the last update.

The biggest problem of China is the continuous supply of food, the China will be very distressed after they train too many villagers to BOOM, or train too many pikemen to anti-cavalry, or train too many Chukonu to anti-MAA, especially when their cost of farming is so high.
Yeah, I know that China has great potential for farming, but in any case, they need to invest additional 150× (1-3) of wood on the granary firstly.
This period of transition to farming often leads to the collapse of China’s defense.

Perhaps I mentioned more about solo games, but I did see this civ often failed during the transitional period from Age2 to Age3. The cost of entering the dynasty isn’t a critical problem compared to the food issue. And nerf the rewards of dynasties which are not excessive maybe inopportune.


China has an issue getting established with an early win rate of less than 50% that looks like this or worse for most ranks

its not until you sort for exclusive conq rank games do u get a marginally 50% win rate early game; so only conq know how to play China I guess?

Next Song Dynasty is a given and a must; I don’t have the stats but I would speculate 90%+ china games enter song dynasty; but the other dynasties??? esp ming dynasty?? Yuan is often a dynasty achieved AFTER imperial in my experience and viewing experiences.

edit I did china a disservice to show those conq enhanced stats these are what NON conq statistics look like win over game length:



I think this is enough to show CLEARLLYYYYYYY non-pro; non conq players in 1 v1 rank are STRUGGGGGLINGGG early with china without debatable facts.

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Yep, that’s why I said the biggest problem of Chine is the continuous supply of food.

About 15 mins, this is the period of when they exhaust natural food and began to transform into farming.

In fact, I believe if we increase the supply of natural food or reduce the cost of farming of Chinese, it will bring smoothy of win rate of this civ. This is exactly what you want , buff the survival ability of this civ in the early game.

There is no need to reduce the costs of the Song Dynasty, so we have no need to nerf the rewards of this dynasty either.
As well as Ming Dynasty, the rewards of the Ming Dynasty did not bring decisive changes, what’s the point of spending two even three thousand resources to enter it if we cut its rewards in half? 5% is really insignificant.

However, I do reserve judgment about Yuan Dynasty.
Perhaps we can increase the same speed for all units instead of making units which were already so swift like palace guards faster.


So, according to the graphs, the best thing to play with China is either to make an early feudal rush, or “play turtle” and just think about attacking in Imperial, because apparently attacking in the castle age seems like suicide.

It seems curious to me, because many of my victories with China against human rivals were crushing their army in feudal or castles, and then going directly to their base. Well, considering that “smash an army” isn’t necessarily an attack on your base, that’s probably a valid strategy as well. Early wasp nests, easy to produce with the Boasting 3rd Age Landmark, allow you to build a well-balanced army.

natural food does NOT get depletion 15min into game; you maybe have already started transitioning to farms around time but 100+ wood over a standard mill ISN’T why China is struggling to make it safely into mid/late game.

Ming dynasty is just not used except for gimmicks/memes;

Also the purpose of diminishing the dynasty bonuses is such that they would STACK instead of replace each other; a unit that is 10% faster and 5% healthier is no small buff; esp when its your whole bio chinese army?? Retaining 17s villager train time while your villagers now move 10% faster than wheelbarrow isn’t no SMALL buff? And all this at a discount?

That’s exactly 15 mins when you exhaust sheeps, fruits, and nearby deers, perhaps there are more natural foods on the map, but you can’t reach them when you are being suppressed. I do know this dilemma because I played this civ in solo game occasionally. What I feel is that this civ is uncomfortable to use.

As for whether to keep different rewards of various dynasties, I have no idea right now.
The only thing I wanna say is that the dynasty reward is not excessive when we can only keep one of them.


And you finally get to the point; China isn’t established if he cant expand out on the map

The only way to change this is to give them heavy armor or crossbow in Age2, but the existence of IO makes it impossible.
I don’t know if Relic will give them an enhanced version of a horseman like Delhi. Maybe an enhanced pikeman is feasible if they don’t want this civ be OP in early game.

There is seldom an “only way” IMO.

I suggested speeding up their progression but capping their peak in order to keep the aoe4 chinese theme going. The design of the civ appears to be a slowly boomy defensive faction with speedy building ability.

Perhaps that’s also sort of considerable update plan, but the specific values you planed can be considered further.

The cost savings of 120 food and 60 gold come in exchange for training each villager to pay an additional 2s. This will cause China’s economy to suffer further during its weakest period.

Yeah, maybe you can enter Yuan Dynasty easier. However, it is already very hard to enter Age3 safely when facing a rushing opponent.
The heavy nerf of rewards by Song Dynasty were only for the Yuan Dynasty to arrive 1 or 2 mins earlier (this plan can only save 360 food and 180 gold, which approximately equal to 6 spearmen or chukonu), which can not reverse the disadvantaged and will only lead China (which probably being cut off its food supply) fail faster.

Moreover, never forget your villagers need waste their collecting time on building landmark.
I mean the 70% discount is really unhelpful, and the nerf of dynasty rewards will be catastrophic.

If we really upgrade according to this value, China’s survival ability in solo game will be decrease significantly. They won’t even survive when they collect the third buff (Yuan’s speed up).

This will actually lead to a nerf of China in the early game. If you really enjoy collecting all dynasty rewards, you may need a more executable plan, that’s what I wanna say.


Never underestimate the changes made by each villager to train for two more seconds. Losing a villager means far more than just losing 50 food.

That’s means you have lost 5 villagers from 5mins to 15mins (which is you known the weakest period of China), and this loss will be greater if it is in the case of double TC. Guess how many more resources these 5 villagers could have collected for you in 10 mins.
Moreover, each villager trains for 2 more seconds, which also means that the time point where each villager participates in work are constantly delayed. This can also lead to massive potential resource loss.

Causing such a huge loss of resources during China’s weakest period, what they got in exchange was only to save 2.25 spearmen’s resources when entering Song Dynasty, and a Yuan Dynasty buff that couldn’t get at all (because China will be crushed before receiving this BUFF due to the loss of too many resources before).
This will only lead a heavy nerf of China, but not what you called greater early.


It’s not merely a saving of 120 food and 60 gold? I suggested to reduce ALL landmark cost to 70% of original cost; so 2 feudal landmarks would NOW cost a total of 560 food and 280 gold. Which is a total savings of 240 food AND 120 gold?? ALSO… 2 more things:

Villager resource gathering
EZ maff villager gathering is about 40 resources per minute; and Chinese villagers are about 44 resources per minute when you assume perfect taxation… AND once your Imperial Official is supervising 6+ villagers the net result is even greater than the 44 reso##### per min per chinese villager! So I say all that to say reducing age up cost by so much opens up all kinds of stratagem on top of an extremely fast Song dynasty that can literally be 1-2mins SOONER??!

What can you now do with that 30% savings?
You’re also discounting the idea that you’re still producing resources at the same rate as you’ve always done (actually more if they fix taxation to be implemented as I suggested at a flat 10% of resources per drop-off)? This can mean a much faster 2nd TC. The only way the current Song Dynasty would outperform MY suggested Song Dynasty is IFF China was left alone to boom for 15-20min+… then, yes, the original Song would out pace mine—however that’s unrealistic that China is left alone to boom. And that’s part of my aim; I want china to get going SOONER but not PEAK at the same peak.

To give you an idea just how FAST a 240 food & 120 gold feudal age up is; you should try it in game now; gather 280f and 140g without idling your TC and you’ll notice as much as 60s sooner ability to age up to feudal as compared to standard Chinese feudal; I was able to gather 240 food and 120 gold with training an imperial official AND making a village in 2min and 05s; which would mean 1 single villager building the landmark would take 95s for a 3min 40s feudal age up??! NOBODY is that fast WITHOUT cutting corners AND/OR slamming the landmark down with 8+ villagers. This alone is bigger than you might think.

APHAHAHAHAHA; yea this is too strong; never mind 30% is too much…
I skipped Imperial official; skipped village and just made a mill near my TC for tax generation (for later); and I got 240f and 120g in 1min and 38s… Yes! ONE MINUTE AND THIRTY-EIGHT SECONDS?!! Which means 1 single villager age up time of 3mins 13s?? This would be unbeatable.

That’s do sounds like a more sonsiderable plan if you give discount to every landmark of China.

This plan will lead extensive application of Fast Feudal and Fast Castle.
Chinese horseman will attack very early, but still later than Mongols. Easier to obtain crossbowmen can also make opponents’ rushing more reserved.

But I am still uncertain whether the nerf of Song Dynasty’s rewards will significantly nerf China’s sustained combat capabilities. The resource loss caused by each villager training for 2 more seconds in 10mins must count by the thousands.

How about I offer you a tunning pack, you can test with your friends whether China can counter with the original tactics of other civs such as RUSH after this adjust.

Help yourself to search
China Landmark Discount Experiment
in Mods column.

I have uploaded this tuning pack. Have fun.

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that’s very cool!!

i’ll go look for it

Oh, by the way, excuse me I can’t change the reward of the dynasty, that seems a bit complicated.

So I increase the training time for Chinese villagers to simulate the effect of a villager in 17 seconds after Song Dynasty


I’ll try it tonight; I’ll try to do a standard vs tuning pack comparison

I haven’t tried your tuning pack seriously yet but of th past few days ive been dropping bbq on enemy gold/stone completed around 4min 30s no military or 4:50s with 2-3 spears and a scout for body blocking (its very toxic :sweat_smile:)

But imagine your mod?? If i can get resources for feudal by 1min 40??? It means i can have a bbq 80s sooner?? Pahahaha.

Sidenote the new limitations for bbq placement near enemy base is actually broken GOOD! BC before you had to either memorize the spacing or guess and check it real time as to NOT get your villagers killed to TC fire. NOW? It perfectly puts the CENTER of the Bbq on the 8 tile SQUARE LINE; which means you’ll still be able to reach and kill any villagers tht pops out the face of that enemy TC…