Mangonel Nerf - Springald and Wam's video

[HasanIchess]

Wam mentions that his expectation when playing aoe4 is to use units and not for siege to be the main character, to the point of suggesting that it be removed from the game.

clip wam https://acortar.link/AuDukr

In the Reddit poll most agree on a change to the mangonel or springlad

Do springalds or mangonels need to be changed? (poll)

PURPOSE OF THE MANGONEL AND BEASTY’S OPINION
Beasty mentions that the mangonel is needed to deal with the mass of ranged units, so: simply move the mangonel’s base damage to its bonus against ranged units
exact minute https://youtu.be/UeqicP_SptY?si=yN4dRNqEVn7yq4F7&t=449

Maybe you had the premise that a strong mangonel against all units ends games, well now it’s clear that’s not true

Changes to siege from the previous patch

In the previous patch the springald’s defense was reduced to 10 I think a similar change is what the mangonel needs

PROPOSAL
Move half of the mangonel’s base damage to its bonus against ranged units and its ranged defense reduced to 7 or 9

In the same way, the springald will need 2 shots to destroy the mangonel

Castle age archers have 7 damage, so they will only do 2 damage with the two smithy upgrades (or 1 damage if ranged armor is 9)

Crossbowmen will do 5 damage to it as they have 12 base damage, they only have 5 attack range so it won’t be a counter to the mangonel, but it will discourage its spam

An example of ten crossbowmen against a spingarda will destroy it in three attacks (it would be a similar battle against the mangonel)

Here all ranged units from the castle age but keep in mind that they have half the range of the mangonel

Its counterpart Nest of Bees
Reduces its base damage and gives it a damage bonus against ranged units. 8 bursts x 8 base damage - 64 attack, it’s an abuse (personally I think that this unit is a consolation prize for the Chinese main because of its low winrate but it’s a broken unit)

Therefore the mangonel and Nest of Bees are less effective against melee attack units and it will not be necessary, to deal with it, the springald spam

SIEGE PHILOSOPHY
For the other siege units, their function is to destroy walls and buildings, therefore they transfer the great majority of base damage to their bonus against buildings

and therefore it will not be necessary, to deal with it, the springald spam

NO MORE SPRINGALD SPAM
Remove the ability of springald to pass through enemy units and forests (the only acceptable thing is that he passes through palisades, nothing more)

remove this ability and it will discourage the springald spam (this ability is not necessary, remember that the hp of the siege is already very low)

Handcannoneer
It seems that only Handcannoneer is the main reason to have a strong mangonel, decreasing its ranged defense will obviously make it very vulnerable to Handcannoneer.
First I wonder what was the reason and purpose of this unit to have 35 damage, is it because the siege defense is 30?
If Handcannoneer is a big problem then nerf it, reduce its attack range to 3 and any other nerf you can think of and that way we solve all this

Pop
Without those changes I don’t think just a pop increase would make the difference, if you only increase pop the siege will continue to be the protagonist, there will simply be less units to attack with

[Adribird90]

Springald did a lot of damage to AoE4 at launch and it’s a design problem.

Removing that unit from competitive and nerfing the base damage of the Mangonel/NoB/GB (not the armor or bonus) so that melee units are replacements for the Springald is one of the great solutions and one that I still see no downsides to.

[HasanIchess]

I prefer cautious and subtle changes, for example the mangudai is not used by pro players and it has not been necessary to remove it from the game.

I assure you that if it becomes possible to use your units as a shield against the springald it will be so frustrating for the rival that we will only see two springald on the map.

[Adribird90]

I am convinced that removing the “anti-siege” siege from competitive play with an area damage siege nerf against melee units will make games much more dynamic.

[HasanIchess]

@Adribird90

Zhuge nu is not the best example. Siege is ok today.

If you were more of a gamer than Caster, your comments would be more coherent. You are very influenced by the sudden ideas of your favorite players.

Now look at this comment, which confirms that my nerf will be effective.

Spam of Springald - very easy mechanics

You didn’t, but in case a blocking mechanism would make mangonel comps with body shield overpowered, to the point that springalds couldn’t deal with them, then the springald might become a useless unit which could force buffs in return.

[Adribird90]

Spam of Springald - very easy mechanics

Over time I’ve come to realize that Springald’s mechanics don’t tend to generate a good gaming experience for many people. Siege against buildings I like and I think it’s ok, but it’s true that Springald is not good for the flow of the game.

Cristian, I think you have to be fair because a few comments below (June this year) I gave the explanation.

Siege may be balanced with respect to anti-siege and vice versa, but by design and game experience it is not a nice thing.

[HasanIchess]

If coincidentally you do it right after that Wam manifests it or Vortix says: “It cannot be that a siege unit is a counter to siege”

I leave the results of your own survey, which, due to the lack of options, had to choose: “likes the current system”
When you should have put the option: do not eliminate siege

https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe4/comments/1d1nsxq/should_antisiege_siege_be_removed_from_the/

[Adribird90]

My position on the siege game had not changed for quite some time even if I think that “it could be balanced between those”. Another thing is that my thoughts have been justifiably radicalized thanks to trying the “No springalds and culverins” mod.

You can check my Reddit and you will see that some time back from the pro’s videos, I was already commenting on siege warfare.

[MedicMaaan]

I agree on reducing base damage while increasing bonus for mangonel and nest of bees. On removing or nerfing culverin and springald, I am strongly opposed.

When playing on a map with water we would have very few options to respond to boats in range of land units. You can use them to help secure the beach long enough to get docks up if the opponent has control on water. They can also snipe transport ships without being exposed to their fleet.

There are other uses for those units than counter siege play, even if it is their main purpose in meta.

[Adribird90]

The Mangonel can be given a bigger bonus against ships and the bombard in Imperial already does a good job.

[ArdeiGras1576]

I agree with Wam that my games are more fun when anti-unit siege is not used. When Mangonels are on the field, I just have to pull back all my units and make Springalds. Then I have to solve this puzzle of Springald vs Springald, and the losing player just gets dominated by Mangonels.

I am a low ranked player and still completely agree with Wam that siege is not fun. The game is much more fun before the siege stage, or if anti-unit siege is not used.

I don’t know if your suggestions are the right ones, as you didn’t seem to provide a proper analysis of pros and cons to them, or why they’d be better than other options, but all I know is the game is more fun when you get to go around the map with small groups of units and attack positions. To this extent, I’d also like the Outpost line of sight to be nerfed. It’s way too big and prevents any kind of plays.

Edit: I do like fights with Mangonels in small numbers (1-2 of them) and no Springalds. That’s the only situation where anti-unit siege is ok, because you can dodge the shots and it’s a tense situation without Mangonels being ridiculously strong.

[Shneider177]

Increase population requires for all siege by 2! NERF NOB’s splash damage from 8 dmg to 6. Change mangonel base to 5 but increase the bonus damage vs range to keep the kill shots required the same. Do like beasty said and increase the hitbox of the siege so its more accessible to enemy melee.

the only solution i can’t figure out is Springald vs Springald wars??? Okay make springalds train time increase to 45s and cost increase 300w 300g.

Now the only problem given suggested changes is the great bombard… great bombard fully upgraded should die in 6 springlad shots in my opinion.

Changed my mind on springalds. A Springald should be re-purposed to be a sniping ballista. I’m talking a base damage in castle of 120 siege dmg, 8 sec recast, 0.5-1 sec wind up. And make it cost 1000 resources ( 400w 600g). This version of a spring would not be spam worthy bc of the slow recast, but at least it would counter siege snd other high HP targets.

[HasanIchess]

Increasing the size of the siege was not really thought out, just take into account that a mangonel passes through two houses or structures together, it would be very unpleasant to see a mangonel pass like a ghost between two buildings.

[HasanIchess]

Remove seige

Siege should have never been a viable anti personnel weapon. The ability of magonels to wipe out armies is absurd and just not very fun. Its like playing a Napoleonic era game but without all the cool cannons.

[_e_o_ka]

Relic should have taken a big lesson from aoe3 (2005) in understanding how to design and balance siege.
Also, why no siege crew? Why no physics, why no area dmg?
Why are springalds not just long-range hardcounters for siege units, why do they do significant damage to regular units?
Why do springalds not have siege type damage???
They should completely ignore ranged resist but have almost zero base damage, only big bonus vs siege.

Relic, really… Take a lesson from aoe3!!!

[hd.age]

@_e_o_ka

Why are springalds not just long-range hardcounters for siege units, why do they do significant damage to regular units?

I agree with you. As long as we have mangonels, NoB and GB in the game, we need springalds and culverins. But springalds should be specialized in anti siege only. Their damage against other units should be minimal.

[_e_o_ka]

Exactly…
And a GB should never be able to trade evenly against a hardcounter antisiege-siege unit, costwise and pop-wise.
The unit stats are just massively fail-designed.

If you go greedy in aoe3de and spam great bombards and some jans, the enemy makes a few culverines and blasts them away, and then cleans your base with his remaining army.
And why? Because all falcs/cannons/bombards lose vs culverines in aoe3(de), pop-wise and cost-wise, and have less range than culverines.
Great bombards and falconets are a hardcounter to light infantry and do significant damage to heavy infantry also, but they can get sprinted at and are super vulnerable to mlee attacks and ultra-vulnerable to culverines, which you can train in the same age as cannon-type units (age3).
Also ranged units in aoe4 don’t have a 2nd attackmode (melee).
Which is just UBER-FAIL.
They should have it in order to close up and attack siege units and archers should be forced into melee mode, when they get attacked by cavalry, like it happens in aoe3…

Aoe4 → fail
This game is just such a massive fucking disappointment and downgrade from aoe3de that it hurt my eyes seing it at release.
Biggest disappointment I could have imagined for the age series.
And it’s been 3 years, nothing has been done about the lack of logics in countersystem, meta, attack prio.

[HasanIchess]

@hd.age

@_e_o_ka

Why are springalds not just long-range hardcounters for siege units, why do they do significant damage to regular units?

I agree with you. As long as we have mangonels, NoB and GB in the game, we need springalds and culverins. But springalds should be specialized in anti siege only. Their damage against other units should be minimal.

I propose that the springlad does not pass through enemy units, meaning that enemy units can block the springlad’s attack (that will prevent its sapm), rather what you want is to reduce its base damage to a minimum and only have a bonus against siege similar to torch damage.

[_e_o_ka]

@HasanIchess

I propose that the springlad does not pass through enemy units, meaning that enemy units can block the springlad’s attack

I don’t think that is a good idea at all.
Makes it complete impossible to counter siege then.
Imagine mangos/gb behind enemey frontline, untouchable.
For the love of god, this can not be let happen man…
Make 10 units, spam mango/gb, ggwp.

Did you play aoe3(de) before?
The system I described works beautifully there.

[HasanIchess]

Spam of mangoneles is not useful to you if it only works against ranged units (as suggested) and I propose to reduce his ranged armor, which makes him more vulnerable. You have not read the proposal.