got to agree with others on here.
some civs naturally struggle against others. it’s going to happen when there is 35 of them and some specialize in different things.
Mayans are one of the best civs in the game, so them having a bad matchup or two isn’t a problem from my point of view.
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Problem is that it isn’t an unfavorable match-up: it’s a straight civ win unless you can stop the goths from getting a castle, which in practice is almost impossible. Mayans aren’t that good at early aggression and the opponent can always wall up.
If it was something like goths vs britons, then it would be fine, as britons at least stand a chance (though it’s a very unfavorable match-up). As Mayans there’s is nothing you can do to stop huskarls, even with superior eco you will get overwhelmed. I would rather have mayans have their el dorado eagles nerfed and be given a way to deal with huskarls then what we have now.
Civ wins are neither fun nor good game design.
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Can’t believe everyone is complaining about Goth lategame against Mayans, but not Goth lategame vs Magyars, Tatars, Vietnamese, Huns, Indians and Koreans.
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According to aoestats.io, Mayans have 43% winrate against goth (although there might be insufficient amount of data), which is better than a lot of bad match-ups for weaker civs (Koreans have 30-35% winrate against at least 5 civs, Indians have ~40% winrate against at least 5 civs, many archer civs have low winrate against goth and so on). Therefore, even if we consider Mayan weakness against Goth a problem, there are clearly more urgent issues of the same type for other civs. My opinion that it’s perfectly fine to have counter civs, as long as each civ has a chance. Mayans can gain a huge lead in Castle Age and crush Goth with eagle + crossbow spam in early imp, therefore, it’s not a one-sided match.
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and its literally their worst matchup. so Mayans, in their worst matchup, still manage a 43% winrate.
Well, if you let goths boom comfortably to imp pretty much any non-infantry civ gets into huge trouble. Thing about the civs you listed is (apart from indians) all these have knights (most of them with bloodlines) and this is really the key. Goths only become dangerous for these civs when they can spam husk and halbs and this takes a lot of time, you need eco, you need a castle and so on. So it’s not that difficult to get a good position against goths in early or mid castle age because with choosing between knights and xbows you can counter everything they can realistically bring to the field. With mayans it’s different because of lack of knights. Technically, it would apply to all meso civs but aztecs have very strong swordsmen and also jags while incas have slingers so these two have the perfect counter units against goths, anyways.
Mayans are pretty good at early aggression. Not as good as aztecs or so but still very good. Otherwise it wouldn’t have been one of the few often used archer civs in kotd3. People may conceive of them as a defensive civ because they are one the best civs for defensive play in feudal age on open maps but this doesn’t mean they can put on the pressure early on. Until the point where goths have larger numbers of huskarls, mayans is still the better arabia civ.
These maps are dominated by the respective civ matchups, anyways. So I don’t see a problem when Mayans have a bad one, here. Civs like huns, berbers, indians and goths themselves have way more than one bad civ matchups on closed maps like these. My impression is that people complain about Mayans vs Goths only because Mayans is so popular. Indians, for instance, have bad matchups against more than half of the civs on arena (and pretty much vs any of the top civs you could call it a civ loss) and yet nobody complains.
Very practical solution indeed. Alternatively you can:
- Alt-F4
- Uninstall AoE2
- Stop playing video games
As we can see Mayans have multiple options against Huskarls. Let’s hope OP will be more creative next time when he faces this matchup
Let’s not be fully aggressive on this one.
The first solution is enough
This is a very strong point, especially seeing as Mayan players are (on average) weak for their ELO.
Funny you mention Koreans and Indians, since those were already known as weak 1v1 civs. Portuguese and Tatars also have aweful worst matchups (at least 5 civs against which they have <<40% win rate).
Personally I’d prefer if the devs balanced out these bad matchups.
Actually it’s possible to win with non-mayans or ethiopians civ vs goths lategame imo ,at very least you have champion or hc or paladin mayans have no one of their unit and their UU are useless against huskarl,
all unit from mayas get destroyed by huskarl:
Arbalest ?
Plumed ?
Skirm / halberdier ?
Eagle? they draw with huskarl in 1v1 but they are trained 2x slower and they cost a lot more of gold plus they need combo with archer to not be countered by only champion
Koreans and Vietnamese have both champion which is clearly enough +4 attack is important but not crucial especially when you have good archers, koreans have even hc
Indians are a a really good civ against goths in lategame : champion full up + hc + 1 range actually this is clearly more difficult for goth player to win this match up
knight line not here can be a problem castle age but it’s clearly possible to deal
Magyars same very good champion and paladin and arbalest and hca a lot of possibility to deal imperial age but i would prefer to go on champ + arba with them
Huns have no champ nor hc which is very sad but at very least they can do paladin + skirms or paladins + hca if they have trade in tg but i don’t think it’s a good idea to do this combo anyway but they are still a bad civ agaisnt goths on late but at least even if they are not favorised they have better chances and they can end the game castle age more easiest with kts
Tatars have hc but yes pretty bad matchup as well as they have no champ but keshick or hussar can do ok i think (not sure about this one not get used to this civ at the moment) but at very least they are kts full up castle age so they can rekt a goths castle age as well
Mayans in late have absolutly no responce at all vs huskarls AND no kts line for castle age to go with kts + siege to end the game before castle drop and good economy
I don’t think winrate is a good idea for balancing since they are a lot of factor which are not taking into account like simply civ’s knowledge of player which is playing with , the map etc but right i looked also by curiosity, and at 1650+ elo mayans have 36.00% winrate vs goths and we can see winrate falling the more the game lasts.
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Exactly, Mayans simply like the tools to deal with huskarl. They just can’t. They have no real anti-infantry unit and lack both champions and supplies.
Well not really. Indian Champion miss last armor. And HC +1 range is pretty negligible tech because HC accuracy in max range is low and +1 range does not have significant meaning. And missing knight is huge problem here. They cannot defend against castle age Huskarl raid.
Yeah. it is debatable but definitely not that good matchup for Magyars. Both HCA and Paladin is very expensive to tech compared to Goths infantry. And magyars also lack last armor on Champion.
Yeah probably. Huns have better castle age but also not that easy against Goths. If Goths survive with at least 1 Castle to go imp (To elite upgrade of Huskarls and perfusion). The situation is pretty bad for Huns. They have neither Champion nor Hand Cannon. I see game Viper vs Tatoh in this matchup. Viper Goths pressured heavily in Castle but survive with One caslte and go to imp, and then situation with pretty unstoppable for Huns.
Not really. Remember Tatars eco is not good and they already fall behind Goths in Feudal (Goths have free loom). Only advantage of Tatars is free thumb ring which is pretty negligble after Goths build Castle and train Huskarls. I think it is probably the easiest civ win for Goths.
I also think Mayans vs Goths is very lopsided matchup but it is not the only issue for mayans. So the probelm cannot be solely debated for mayans vs Goths mathcup. I think it is not bad idea to nerf Goths either early game or late game to solve the problem. Their late game is already great before buff. And after they get early game buff, they are pretty unstoppable for several civs.
But probably nerf goths heavily means they just become useless pre-buff. So we think about some reasonable point.
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An alternative option would also to give units like scorps a bonus damage against huskarls. Right now they don’t perform that incredibly well against them, as huskarls’ high pierce armor and fast speed is usually able to just overwhel them, unless a solid meatshield is present.
36% winrate is probably 9 wins vs 16 losses considering how little data there is for 1650+ games. This is not indicative of anything.
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oh my bad i was sure that indians get last armor but anyway it’s just melee armor in champ war it’s not rally that usefull plus goths doesn’t have it either
Perfectly agree on this point that’s why i think it’s a better choice to go on champ + arba
Yes agree also huns are a bad civ late game vs goths clearly even if they are better than mayans imo
Goths have free loom and that’s it (the bonus vs boar is just a meme and it looks like a malus if we forget about it 11 oups boar killed 2 tiles away from tc) it’s a good early game bonus ofc but in castle or even late feudal they have absolutly nothing in term of eco bonus as tatars, anyway i agree with you that tatars have a bad matchup against goths , actually this civ have bad matchup against almost all civ
mmm goths’s problem is that they depend heavy on which civ they face.Civ like (for exemple) jap , incas , teutons , khmer , franks , byzantines , britons etc etc they are so weak even late game or early game but against another civ like mayans , ethiopians , and if they get to imp without too many damage huns tatars etc that’s completly different, i think the goth’s design is terrible because this civ consist of playing
heads or tails with civ
Could be a good idea on paper but i don’t think it will works since scorpion are soooo expensive , so slow (against civ like goths which can spam everywhere mobility is important) and goths get both onager and bbc without extra range as mayans however.
Since we are talking about post imp scenarios, try to add some heavy scorpions.
To be fair, I think the best approach would be to introduce a huskarl armor class and then fine tune some units to counter a bit better huskarls without affecting any other infantry. Similar to what done with the condottiero.
But then the Goths would suck. Goths have no stone walls. Many civs counter Goth well already.
Goths, ironically enough do well on closed maps like black forest or Arena. Since they can’t be rushed so easy. Sure, Goths can rush themselves on open maps, but they have F-Grade defense.