Hello, Currently have no option besides of El dorado elite eagle warrior in post imp vs Goths Huskarls and they are not very good in term of cost effectiveness, especialy when goths can mix Huskarl and champion.
So i think we could add a bonus for Plumed archer to deal more easily with huskarl (Only Huskarl not other infantry) like maybe +3, they have already +1/+2 vs Infantry (So huskarl) but that’s clearly not enough to stop Post imp Spam.
Goths can still counter Plumed archer by makings Skirmishers / infantry but now it’s not auto-lose for mayans player when this matchup go post imp.
What do you guys think about it ?
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No. Every civ has strengths and weaknesses. And that’s fine.
Simply don’t pick Mayans when facing Goths. Problem solved. Or archer rush them early or something. Post Imp Byzantines with ally trade wipe the floor with Goths. Cataphract lay waste to Goth infantry hordes.
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The problem is post imp and on some map it’s almost impossible to beat goths on feudal (Regicide fortress, bf, arguably arena…)and you don’t know which civ have your opponent.
The only interest to this this civ is to counter mayans imo.
i know that goths is a really bad civ , really easy to beat but mayans and (ethiopians also in 1v1 situation when gold is a problem) just cannot do anything
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I deleted my post because after reading it it sounded harsh and looked like a dock haha.
Personally I dont like this idea. Huskarl are archer counter units it would be super counterintuitive if there was one archer UU that had hidden damage against them. Also, skirms arent good against plumes there to fast every other civ not named lithuanians struggles there.
If mayans need a way to deal with goths there’s probably something else we should do, maybe something creative like nerf El Dorado to 30 hp, and then have it effect the militia line. Idk I’d have to see it tested that may still be too much. We’d want the 2 handed swords to still lose to generic champs, but have a bit better of a go against goth champs that lack the last armor.
In all though my opinion would be that it’s ok for S tier civs like mayans to have a few hard counters.
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Plums and ews fully upgraded are enough to stop the goth player, problem is you might lose it in the long run cause you will be trading more expensive units vs cheap units, the only way to beat them is by making a huge snowball.
Anyway the mayans have everything to beat the goths before they get enough economy to mass huskarls, so the civ is completely fine in terms of balance, hence they don’t need anything else, low skilled players are still asking for HP reduction for el dorado, without giving something else for not having cavalry line and champions or strong monks or siege, see the problem with suggestions without thinking well.
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yeah that’s the reason for why i’m not sure bout bonus damages vs huskarl for plumes but actually the problem is that no other unit which is not an archer or eagle (which are not supposed to counter huskarl)
is a “good unit” for mayans , for exemple two handed still are a counter to huskarl but they lack champion ofc and supplies , mayans are not supposed to get good infantry , but maybe your’re right about two handed buff vs huskarl, not sure how to implement this however 
problem is very closed map essentially like fortress , bf… it is very easy for goth player to boom enough , other problem is that as you said elite eagle + elites plumes or even arba are very expensive so you need a very good economy and a lot of time and ofc they are so gold dependent
You can’t balance a civ depending on 2 closed maps.
Goths will lose 100% vs vikingsin the very same maps you are describing, in fact goths would lose at any map vs vikings, keep in mind there more strong infantry civs in the game with deadly UU or siege, so goths are not that special.
I am telling you with a lot of experience you are going to be fine, plums and ews are thebest combo, if you want to think in the worst scenario, i suggest you to think HUNS vs Goths, that is 100% lost game for the huns.
There was a suggestion some time ago which seems more elegant:
- increase plumes anti-melee damage by +1
- decrease the mayan archer discount (both archers and plumes are currently discounted 30% in imperial)
It has the additional advantage of nerfing Mayans in a lot of matchups
2 Likes
yeah i’m agree with you : Goth are a really bad civ in post imp they lose to almost all civ and all situation , im perfectly ok with mayans are bad vs goths , the problem is that in high level game it’s almost impossible to win as mayans vs goths post imp when both have economy , huns are really bad as well vs goths you have the point , however goths need a redesign to not be a a “lame civ” which are only used to counter civ like mayans ethiopians huns etc in post imp
one other thing that make me think that mayans are so bad vs goths : they don’t have kts as huns for exemple in castle age they need to get longsword (which are expensive) + siege to end the game the fastest possible to counter huskarl and if it goes in imp to go back to eagle + el dorado + plumes or archers (else just full champion from goths and gg) , a lot of ressources and time for just one unit of one civ. Kts +2 attack especialy with 2-3 scorpion to deal with pikeman better are really good vs goths spam full infantry so it’s really easier for a huns player to end the game.
What do you mean by anti-melee damage ? the bonus which plumes have vs all infantry ?
Mayans don’t nees any kind of buff. Not even to this. Let them lose against goths
yes, plumes have +1 vs infantry, and Elite plumes have +2.
When the pierce armour exceeds the plumes’ pierce attack (as is the case for huscarls), that results in 1 damage per arrow for plumes and 2 damage per arrow for Elite plumes.
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Mayans fair reasonably well against goth, because they have a huge advantage in castle age. Additionally, El Dorado eagles trade evenly against equal number of huskarls (both die in 7 hits to each other, huskarl costs less gold, but more resources overall), so Mayans even have a chance in imp. I say it’s fair when one of the best civs is partially countered by one of the mid-tier civs.
Ah right i was not sure about anti melee damage , yes i know this issue, that’s why i proposed implicitely in my first post to make an armor class specificely for huskarls , this way plumes are not altered vs halb,champ,eagles etc where there are alredy deadly but by nerfing cost of plumes maybe it can be ok but plumes will begin to be very expensive compared to original one in AOC .
Another option is raiding. Eagles and olumes can destroy goth eco. No eco, no spam.
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Mayans really need some way to deal with huskarl. Perhaps giving 2h swords a bonus damage against huskarls could help. Or giving them supplies. This would change nothing except their match up against goths, as mayans never go 2h swords otherwise.
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You must have some serious hacks if you know what civ you’ll be facing before the game starts.
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Always will be civs that hard counter others no matter what (Teutons to Franks, Bulgarians to Aztecs, Lithuanians to Teutons and Slavs, Mongols to any foot civ, etc…) isn’t about balance.
I don’t think Mayans are only civ struggle against Goths.
Indians / Tatars can be more struggle against Goths. Indians have literally no unit to compete vs Huskarls in Castle age. (Knight are often useful when small numbers, and eagles can trade well with Huskarls when gold is enough. Longsword can be useful but Huskarls can runaway to raide eco)
Tatars also very struggle against Goths. They don’t have good eco and already fall behind against Goths in dark and Feudal age, and they have no meat shields vs Goths. Their infantry is terrible to fight against Goths.