New architecture set for the Iberian civilizations (Spanish and Portuguese) change the name of Spanish to Castilla plus add Aragon as a playable civilization, the caravels could be the unit they have shared by region.
The division of the Italians just like the Indian update by different civs like Venice, Genoa, Milan or the papal states, the condottiero as a shared unit
I would like us to explore this idea that I have been thinking about for a long time
There’s a lot of resistence against any further Italian split (or any new Euro civ aside from the Balkans and, if you see it as European, the Caucasus), even more so since the Romans have been anounced for AoE2.
Personally, I could see Venice and the Papal States as possible additions in a very distant future and many dlc’s focusing on other parts of the world INCLUDING the Balkans and the Caucasus which should probably come before anything else in Europe. The Italian states that were part of the HRE for most of the late Middle Ages (Milan, Genoa, Savoy, Florence, Pise, etc.) should probably remain under the same umbrella no matter what.
Aragonese could maybe make a good addition (again in a distant future), but I’ve never seen much hype for it. Even Andalusians seem to be suggested more often. Anyway, I agree Iberia should probably get some shared regional UU. Both the caravel and missionary could be shared between Spanish and Portuguese, both of them + the Berbers could have the genitour (maybe replacing cavalry archers) and the organ gun could even be a common unit. All that being said, balance should be taken into consideration even above historical accuracy.
I agree, right now other areas of the world could use a look, so it’s not a priority, but an Italians split could be beneficial by adding various more interesting civs
Even if that never happens, Italians could still be buffed a little since they are rapidly falling behind other civs, even on water
The scale of the division of India is in no way comparable to an Italian split
You can design interesting civs from many parts of the world
To be fair India could be split even further, but that’s a whole different matter.
The 4 Indian civs are still massive umbrelas themselves. It would comparable to just having “Franks”, “Slavs”, “Byzantines” and “Teutons” for all of Europe.
This is not Total War, I don’t see the point of splitting the Spanish into Castille and Aragon (Navarre Leon Galicia Catalunya and Asturias too ?).
To be fair, it feels weird having the Portuguese as a separate civ but not the Aragonese. The Portuguese were mostly relevant in the last two centuries of the game, while the Aragonese were a Mediterranean power aguably with arguably more reach than the Castilians outside of Iberia until the two countries were united. I don’t know much about their military traditions, but they were also relatively distinct culturally. So I think the Portuguese opened a door that maybe should have staid shut, just like the Sicilians in Italy.
Portugal was mainly added as they established contacts in Africa then India, while Aragon played second fiddle to Castille once united. And gameplay-wise I don’t see what they would do different to the Castillans/Spanish.
I think you are confusing doors.
The Portuguese are fine, they were their own Kingdom even before Spain united, and they also had their Empire over Africa.
Something like Aragon (or Catalans as I see some people suggesting them), while historical, opens a political can of worms if you have them separated from Spain, and renaming Spain “Castilla” just makes it even worse.
It was once brought to my attention that Portuguese were probably added to court the Brazilian playerbase, and it does seem like a sound asumption. In any case, I don’t think they should have been included in a dlc focusing on Africa, their center of power was in Europe after all. It most probably contributed to the current Euro-fatigue we can see in the community.
Yeah, but they were only united roughly a century before the end of the game and were quite relevant before, owning a good chunk of the peninsula the Baleares, Sicily, Sardinia and Roussillon and competing with Italian merchant republics for trade dominance in the Mediterranean.
That’s a lot different matter, I have to admit I have no idea about thiat.
During most of the Middle Ages it was barely more than the third most powerful Christian state in Iberia out of four and they only gained a more relevant position in the late parts of the game. They could be covered just as well by the Spanish umbrella as the Aragonese.
I know there are independantist troubles in Spain, but come on, the Spanish government isn’t the CCP (and even the CCP censorship happiness is often overestimated). There are also Tamil and other Dravidian nationalist movements in India clashing with the also nationalist Indian government, and it didn’t prevent the devs from releasing the Dravidians. There’s also an independantist movement in South Italy reclaiming all the lands of the kingdom of Sicily, and yet the devs released the Sicilians. There’s been an independantist movement in Scotland and people asking for the unification of Ireland for longer than the game existed, and we had the Celts on release without anyone in the UK batting an eye to my knowledge. I don’t see Spain making a fuss over this, and even if it did I doubt it would hurt the game so much.
The people who care about 500+ year old nationalism are weird. Like its centuries ago anyokr effected by these historical events and any inaccuracies is long LONG dead as are a double digit number of generations between you and them.
I think it makes sense as their campaign is circumnavigating Africa to reach India. But yes courting Brazilian players makes sense too.
And they are fine as the Spanish.
Let’s look at the history of ALL Spanish kingdoms : started from the remnants of the Wisigothic Kingdom in Asturias, then expanded as a march by the Franks, expanded south during the Reconquista. Aragon was one of the last one to be reunited with Castille (after Leon and Galicia, but before Navarre that got split between Spain and France) but it still feels like it doesn’t need its own civ.
Portugal remained independant, secured it from Castille quite early (well Spain inherited Portugal for a few decades but that’s after the time of AOE2), and mainly picked a different route of expansion (Africa and India except of the Americas, also got Brazil thanks to the Treaty of Tordesillas), which is sure late in the AOE2 timeline but very significant. It makes more sense to have the Portuguese as a separate civ, than the Aragonese.
What? What kind of logic is this?
Spain and Portugal are separated, the Kingdom of Aragon is one of the founders of Spain, this whole argument is silly. Especially because there is an actual umbrella term that covers the Spanish and Portuguese, “Iberian” from the “Iberian Peninsula”
There was no distinction between Spain and Portugal before the union of Castile and Aragon, Spain was the name for all Christian states in the peninsula during the Middle Ages. Iberia mostly works during AoE3’s timeframe, in AoE2 it also includes the Andalusians.
Is there a euro fatigue in the community? In the forum I would agree, but I’ not so sure…
In the top 10 played civs 6 are europeans
In the bottom 10 played civs 2 are europeans
The game has shifted massively from representing only ethnic groups to now representing individual kingdoms specifically. With that context, I think we can justify splitting the Spanish into the Aragonese and the Castilians. I think we can simply rename the current Spanish to the Aragonese, but take away Inquisition and give it to the Castilians. Then the new Aragonese unique tech can be Reconquista.
You would need a very strong gameplay reason to split them. It was ok for the Bohemians because of how different were the Hussites from a typical heavy imperial army, but for Aragon…
Why leave it at Castilla and Aragon? Why not add Leon, Navarre, Asturias, and Al-Andalus too if we are going with that context?
And this is based on…what basic?
The Reconquista, accepted to be started in the north-west Kingdom of Asturias, is a technology of the north-east kingdom of Aragon?
If we were to add a new civ to the Iberian Peninsula, this is the only one I would support, to be honest. I think the others are still reasonably covered by the Spanish. While Al-Andalus is only vaguely covered by the Saracens or the Berbers