Mesopotamians vs. Celts (poll)

Age of Mythology: Retold Discussion
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Mesopotamians vs. Celts
  • Mesopotamians (Babylonians)
  • Celts (Irish)
0 voters

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First, I would like to thank the devs for giving us the top quality Aztecs DLC. You are awesome!

Second, given the state of things and how fast the DLCs are pumping out like crazy, one would expect a DLC sooner than later. If that were the case then we might expect another one either at the end of this year or early 2027.

That being said for those who haven’t been around this community for long, there were a few polls asking which pantheon and civilization people wanted most for the next DLC. Before the Aztecs and Japanese were added, the usual top picks were the Japanese, the Aztecs, the Mesopotamia, and the Celts. Realistically it was more like a top three since the Aztecs always took first place by a huge margin so they don’t count!

Now that both the Aztecs and Japanese are in… that leaves the two remaining heavy hitters → the Mesopotamians / Babylonians and the Celts / Irish.

Out of those options, which one would you want to see next, and why?

I also put together a quick compilation picture showing the major deities from both pantheons along with examples of their architecture. The ancient Irish buildings are actually more distinct than you might expect especially compared to the Norse. On the other hand, the Babylonian style really stands out too especially with those blue tones. You could almost call them the “Blueberrylonians.” :blueberries: Yummy!

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My initial reaction is both!

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I have a feeling that the developers are already working on both of them. Their pipeline seems to be longer then just 6 months and they seem to be working on multiple DLC at the same time. So while one part of the team is finishing up one DLC the other parts of the team are already on the next DLC.

So it’s very likely that they are already pretty far into the development of the next DLC.

AoM DLC seem to be more profitable then people think. 0.8% of AoE2 players have the most common achievement from the latest DLC (Victory with Mapuche) while already 2.4% of AoM players finished the first mission of the Obsidian Mirror campaign. That’s 3x as high of a percentage. The AoE2 player base on steam is like 6x as big though.

I personally like both Celts and Mesopotamians and I definitely want to see both of them in the game. I really want to see Gilgamesh in AoM but I also really vibe with Celtic stuff. I do want the Celts to not just be 100% Irish though. The Celts were a lot more then that. They were both my top pics even before the Japanese and Aztecs. Honestly even before the Chinese and Atlanteans.

Compared the the 3 already added pantheons they both border multiple existing ones geographically so having them interact doesn’t need magic as an explanation.

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Despite an apparent lower play base on steam, it either has to be many people buying (otherwise they wouldn’t have done the Expansion Pass, as these DLCs are obviously way more expensive to make than AOE2’s ones) or they are overcomiting to make it work in the long run despite not having benefits yet (thing they didn’t do with AOE3)

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AoMR was released on Xbox and PS5 so there is a larger market but we don’t have data for those.

In the end it comes down to them choosing AoMR over AoE3DE. So I think the chance of them supporting AoMR long term is actually higher because they don’t support AoE3DE.

Also AoE3DE player numbers don’t tell much because the game has free to play trial that inflates the numbers.

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According to high activity in SteamDB updates they seem to be restarting development in AoE3.

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If that turns out to be true then it could mean that they are done with AoMR.

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or being optimistic, just a slow down now the game is mostly set up. Even if they didn’t resume development on AoE3 I would also not expect two pantheons a year, they are expensive and it was clearly an initial push to getting popularity on release (and chinease were technically partly done). Maybe a Major god and a pantheon each year

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Both civs should be included in the game in some form, with the Yoruba coming right after.

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I don’t think that a restarting development in AoE3 would mean that they are done with AoM: I think they had to stop with the former due to time constraints given by the Premium Edition (they had to deliver the two DLCs they sold in a year due to Steam policies)

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I wonder what could be good ways to generate favour with Celts and Mesopotamians.

My idea for Celts was favour from trees around shrines but Japanese already did that.

I never had a good idea for Mesopotamians.

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Either of the two are valid options…in fact, for AoEO the Celts came out first in March 2012 and then the Babylonians in August 2012, but here they probably follow a regional continuity: Aztecs and Incas in 2026, then Babylonians/Persians and Indians in 2027 and finally Celts and Slavs in 2028…

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Yes, that’s true…at a certain point they are not comparable…the devs can tell that they feel more comfortable working in AoMR than in AoE 3, because AoE 3 was already marked for life as a “bad AoE” unlike AoM which is so loved by AoE 2 and 3 players…

Hopefully, but it is currently somewhat unlikely… slowly resuming AoE 3 would help them clean up their image a little and not release dlcs so quickly and poorly received for AoE 2 would also serve them… when the time comes the devs should think about a farewell for AoE 2 for 2029, so they can think more calmly about the other games, including a future AoE 5… and until AoE 5 arrives go interspersing between the dlcs of AoM, AoE 4 and AoE 3 (unless AoE 5 was colonial, then it is likely that the AoE 3 dlcs will be saved for AoE 5, but if AoE 5 is in ancient times, then there would be no problem since AoM is a separate thing)…

Yes, the Celts could generate favor by placing their Sacred Groves around the forests and sacrificing nearby animals with their druids (generating wood and favor at the same time in exchange for food) and the Mesopotamians/Babylonians by placing their Ziggurats around their gardens and the priests around them (generating food and favor at the same time in exchange for gold)…

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I think I understand your point. The word “Celt” wasn’t originally a precise cultural label. It comes from writers like Herodotus who used the term pretty loosely for various groups west of the Greek world. They didn’t have a clear understanding of how different those societies actually were… so a lot of distinct cultures got grouped under one name.

That said, the Irish developed a very distinct culture, with their own architecture, mythology, and written sources. There’s enough surviving material there to support a full civilization or pantheon on its own. It’s similar to how the Aztec civilization stands on its own in games without needing to be merged with the Maya civilization or the Inca Empire. Irish mythology and history are just as self-contained. I’m sure you remembered when there were folks who wanted an all American pantheon which included the likes of Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas. Thankfully that didn’t happen.

If you try to combine all “Celtic” groups into one, it raises a bigger problem…. which traditions take priority? For example, Gaulish deities don’t really overlap with Irish ones perse, and vice versa. You’d end up with an artificial mix rather than something authentic.

There’s also the language issue. These groups didn’t all speak the same language, so what would the in-game voice lines even be? Irish Gaelic, Welsh, Gaulish reconstruction, or something blended together?

At that point, it stops being a coherent culture and turns into a catch-all category, which kind of defeats the purpose of representing them properly. It just becomes a little bit messy and convoluted when it doesn’t need to be.

One thing that did they share was druids. I do expect druids to play a big part and as playable units.

I think what is likely to happen is

A.) The Irish pantheon will have its own distinct Irish deities, Gaelic language, culture, and architecture.

or

B.) Same as A.) but they will use some myth units from the Brythonic, Cantabri, and the Gaul Celts.

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I think some people here were discussing about sales above. Not sure if this is relevant but take it with a grain of salt.

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Partly, but not completely, as this doesn’t into account DLC sales to see if it gets long term benefits or information of concurrent players / DLC achievement completion rate relative to buyers which Steam does have, which is what would justify making more DLCs in the future.

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We don’t know very much about how the original Celts where like and how the extrem ends of their Culture later differentiated them but they have a relatively clear origin and a shared identity, similar to Germanic people or Slavic people.

We don’t know much about the mythology of Celts outside of Ireland, that is true, but we have a lot of archaeological evidence of how they lived and what kind of weapons and armour they used.

So I think the Celts in AoM probably have to be mostly based on Irish mythology but their units and buildings can be based on archaeological evidence for other areas or from how the Greeks and Romans described them.

Isn’t that how the Norse are too? Most of Norse mythology we know is all from Iceland but the Norse in AoM don’t just look like people from Iceland.

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The idea of a unified Celtic identity mostly comes from outside observers like Herodotus and Caesar. It was never a single culture or religion in the way people imagine today.

Imo, the strongest issue is mythology. Irish mythology is well preserved and forms a complete system. Outside of Ireland, Celtic religion is “fragmentary”. Gaulish and Brythonic traditions do not give you as much as a full pantheon you can actually build from, at least not to the extent of that of the Irish mythos.

I thought the Norse gods like Odin and Thor were worshipped across Scandinavia and Iceland even if the texts were written in Iceland. That is a shared religious system. As far as I know, the Celtic world does not show that same level of unity.

I get the feeling that AoM puts mythology above and before civilization/culture. So whatever “popular” civilization worshipped said mythology gets “dibs” on it. So basically what I’m saying is that had the Gauls, Breton, Welsh, Cornish folks worshipped the Irish deities then their buildings, cultures, and warriors could be used as a “single” pantheon. But they worshipped different deities. They did not worship the Irish deities at least the majority of them anyway.

It’s probably going to be all Irish deities, Gaelic language, and iconic Irish architectures. They will probably try to find some buildings that they could “match” with other Celtic group buildings as close as possible and use those as well. But mostly it will also probably be Irish warriors and Irish MUs with maybe 2-3 other Celtic group creatures. That, imo, seems the most plausible outcome.

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Same, these two, plus Slavs, are my top 3 preferences. I do think something Mesopotamian slightly edges out Celts though.

I do also kinda want to see Lithuanian/Baltic paganism at some point of it can be fit into the framework of the game; they lasted into the 1200s AD, seems only fair.

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Yeah, i’ve long thought that they had to chose between AoE3 and AoMR, and chose AoMR because it doesn’t have political correctness concerns that they have with AoE3’s timeframe and topic. So yes I do believe that AoMR has benefited from the cut in support for AoE3.

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The problems with the Irish compared to the Icelandic people is that they converted to Christianity very early so their myths were written down long after the Church converted all of Ireland.

Many Irish myths turn the “gods” into “heroes” or other more Christianity friendly things.

Iceland on the other hand was the last Germanic place that converted to Christianity and their myths were written down at the time where they were still converting to Christianity. That didn’t keep the myths free of Christian influences but it is likely much closer to the original myths.

For voice lines it makes the most sense to hire Irish people because they actually still use a Celtic language. Gonna be better then most of the original voice lines anyway, since they are not authentic at all.

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Yes, in principle they wouldn’t have too many problems with AoM as happened with AoE 3, unless they mess with Hindus, but I suppose they could get around that with some expert on Hinduism…