he said in general that he doesn’t like how it is for civilizations the ease of creating a town center at the outset, which leads him to be less aggressive, the game is fine, but doesn’t like the Meta, says it used to be harder to play defensively, and now it’s easier, (‘‘maybe even for rams with less health’’) says he likes it more once it was played more in 2 era
I honestly don’t agree much with what he says, also because I don’t understand what the balance of the patches is that made defense a premium, I think he tends to refer to the english, for example, now the tow centers cost more and there it takes longer to place them, so I can’t get the point of what he means,
but i think it’s in general because now a ram is really easy to throw down,
abbasid can be a point.
In the video he says that a boom metagame has returned, especially in the Early Game, where it is easier to defend and build a 2nd TC fast than to attack and the only counter to the opponent expanding with the 2nd TC is trying to delay it (if he it gives time to be able to press it) and make another second TC or make a second TC directly.
Salvo que los jugadores coloquen el segundo TC muy forward, con un par de unidades y un TC en los ciervos el incoming de comida les permite tener tiempo para poder defenderse si saben esconderse bien con los aldeanos contra el raid y producen una buena composición.
Además yo diría que muchas civs tienen landmarks o bonus para defender el segundo TC (kremlin, barbacana china, reparación de emergencia…) Y micromanejando un poco con los aldeanos podrías evitar que los arietes destruyan el segundo TC y, si lo hace el rival porque ha hecho mucho ariete y sacrificado ejército, siempre que no le hayan raideado aldeanos, tampoco estarían en mala posición.
I wanted to tell you that I’m Italian, I don’t speak Spanish but I understand it, I understand perfectly what you are saying, I was referring in general to what he said, in reality, not many things have changed here, the Chinese have remained the same except that they have had 50 more stone per tc, the kremlin has become more useful for the militia, so for that it is used, but I think you need to use a scout, if you are a french and you know the opponent is duing a tc you can kill villagers from them, surely the Abbasids have a very obvious tc with the new technology, but I don’t think the english have changed that much, even before the Rus did a tc quickly, including the stone in the cancile oll, I think in general it is based only on some little things, for example knights costing a little more and other small changes like rams, even before they used to tc quickly to catch deer, just now people are less afraid of rams, now the castles cost even more.
I say it as someone who has broadcast and watches games frequently, that the metagame is very boomer if you know how to place the strategic palisades well to avoid raids that complicate you.
It’s more about the Early Game, the Keeps thing is better than before.
AoE4 would just become way more defensive over time without any patches pointing into that direction. Bows don’t miss and an extra TC has a theoretical infinite amount of damage it can do to the enemy units without investing any ressources after being built. Also if villagers are gathering ressources from nearby animals the damage done to attacking units should quickly outweigh the ressources lost from idle time. If a defensive player masters scouting and proper reaction to all his opponent does without overreacting, he should win. And over time people will figure that out.
I demonstrate academically that this game is not offensive at all, a game in which you must always react to the Metaboom or you will lose the game. In the Vortix tutorial, he mentions that you should always make an additional TC to the one your opponent does, that is, a reactive game.
We have a few threads about this same thing… I’ll repeat my suggestion here too😀.
I believe meta boom is too strongly optimal because the resources needed to start feudal and 2nd TC are too safely gathered. While an attempt was made to prolong the transition into 2nd TC, 2nd TC is still highly optimal and this favors some factions greatly over others (aka abbasid Rus china etc…). Meanwhile simply making rams more effective is BAAADD for the game given rams late game have no proper counter and really we do NOT want feudal ALL INs to return as meta either!!!
I suggest a few things happen:
Move one woodline and berries within 7 to 8 tiles of starting TC; BUT make that woodline small!! 15 to 20 trees (2250 to 3000 wood). Make the 2nd woodline a standard size large woodline BUT outside safety of the TC RANGE 9 TO 10 tiles away.
Reduce TC LOS and attack range by 1 tile (keep tower landmark restrictions as is).
Change feudal age up requires to 300 food and 300g.
Move gold and stone OUTSIDE protective TC range at 9 to 10 tiles away AND make sure gold and stone always spawn OPPOSITE of each other to prevent 1 mining camp facilitating both and a nerf to mongol God tier TC placements(wood gold stone all under TC…VERY STUPID)…
CHANGE TC cost again to 300w 450stone.
NERF RAMS down to 300HP
Optional…towers built inside the 10 tile radius of the main TC build 10s faster to allow for defenders advantage.
Thought process:
REDUCING TC LOS& range and/or moving resources out adds more uncertainty and risk to tech’ing up and BOOMing blindly. The change in TC cost and feudal cost does just that by requiring not MORE resources but instead more villager time exposed gathering those unprotected resources. These changes open up more opportunities for early and surprising harassment. Meanwhile nerfing rams is two-fold; Rams need a nerf and/or proper counter and if these changes are implemented that will deter 2nd TC mandates. Therefore the counter should NOT be a defacto victory to 2nd TC. I’m convinced the dev DO WANT games to trend toward longer games that progress thru all the ages and technologies. And the principles behind that is GOOD; however how do you promote trend toward tech up without making all the transitions uneventful and stale?
Dark Age at decent to high level should not just be sheep, discovery and defacto fast feudal. Up the tempo in the manner i suggested and watch how early scouting becomes more important than merely scooping up the most sheep or collecting/denying boutny.
I was once told by an AoE developer that before commenting on solutions to an alleged problem, first present the problem and show that it is actually a problem for the majority or major playerbase. So it would be necessary to show if the opening with second TC meta is really a problem for the player base and spectators.
If it is possible to demonstrate that this problem exists, the next step would be to give proposals in the form of more generic solutions that can be directed to a certain place and those developers would already be in charge of trying to solve it.
The devs already know 2nd TC BOOM is a community issue that’s why they changed the cost of TC FROM 400w 300 stone 2min build to 400w 350 stone 2min 30s build? Then they even explained their reason for said change.
The community has alleged via multitude of media outlets how this boomy playstyle is BORING to use a word to describe it. Also if you read EGCTV’s letter response to Beastyqt critique of tournament rules you’ll also see this line of thinking mentioned.
To your first paragraph I tell you that it is correct, the 2nd TC meta was very inflexible. That was a problem and they took some measures that could have been liked more or less.
It is also correct that there is currently a trend towards fast 2nd TC and semi fast 2nd TC meta with the vast majority of civs on the vast majority of maps based on my surveys and stats from aoe4world and Stream matches.
The question is, is it a problem for a large part of the community currently that the trend is that metagame (somewhat more flexible than in the past) or is it a past problem?
For that you will have to argue why the trend of building medium fast 2nd TC is a current problem for players and spectators. You can argue (as EGCTV moderator I am aware of the situation) and then I will give mine.
Too much leg work. The devs have all the raw data. They know or can know how many TCS are made during a match and when. Only thing devs do not have definitively is as you say, the communiy sentiment collated.
HOWEVER they do have win rates!!! And they can see the current civs that do not normally go 2nd TC tend to lose vs the civs that do go 2nd TC!! THEY SHOULD also have the ability to sort their data for break down win rates in collation to additional TCs built before X time? Etc etc.
Regardless i dont think it is hard to show 2nd TC vs no 2nd TC tends to favor 2nd TC. I think???
This game simply does not have a system of rock paper and scissors in its different strategies, the disaster of how they made the water is a reliable proof that the Meta was not deeply meditated, I deduce that they were satisfied with the stone system of the feudal age and the rest were vain decisions;with the sole objective of “giving variety” by putting in some civilizations, units, of age of castles, then with the disagreement of the principle, of the community, about the effectiveness of heavy cavalry and that “France is OP” in such a way that now the lancers are MEGA-profitable; In equal resources 9 seasoned spearmen can sell to 3 castle age knights.
Regarding the TC, when they raised it only 50 stone, it made me laugh, but then I thought that maybe they decided to nerf them gradually, which is clear that they will not do it that way; I think they were satisfied with the fact that reducing the cost of ram was already a great disadvantage for the TC, which is not the case; from my perspective the Ram is a “kamikaze” unit because everything beats the siege (including the Zhuge Nuh)
The advantage of being aggressive is so short, due to various factors such as distance etc, I have shown evidence that the defender “outwits” the attacker with his ability to repair buildings and calmly resume the game.
Another big problem is the rapid accumulation of resources, I am in favor of a high resource rate, to create more units quickly, but despite this they produce more than 150 villagers and accumulate huge amounts of resources, then they look for a way to get rid of them. from their own villagers; if they don’t do it by blatantly eliminating them, what they generally do is send them as “kamikazes” to collect resources in a distant place; all this in complicity with the defensive structures, at least I admit that the emapilzadas increased by almost +50% in price, but the Keeps only increased by their eighth part, what a great nerf! another joke like the TC nerf.
As a consequence, some high-level games are decided by marvel despite its cost is for a team game (6 thousand!), a 3-hour game, which also ended by developing a marvel; all this is irrefutable evidence that the defenses of the game were not thought out, in the same way as the disaster of the water at the beginning; I think that, with the aim of giving variety or novelty, they only thought of giving the “realism” that the walls are only attacked by siege and yet, what realism does it have in that a keep costs a little less than 4 heavy cavalry units?
The extreme nerf of the siege’s hp brought consequences that must now be resolved, I think the springlad has an extremely favorable range and is an ally of the defenses since the “Trebuchet” despite having a low cost, must “dance” and escape to the springalds that are the only ones that magically attack their target by going through any unit that gets in their way; These springlads have great magical power!
Regarding the water, they should no longer touch the collection rate of the sea, the problem is the cheap cost of the docks that are as profitable as a TC, and these simulate a TC, but are more cost efficient, therefore there is no counterplay
In conclusion, the “Fast Castle” should beat the “Bomm”, the “Bomm” should beat the “Rush” and the “Rush” should beat the “Fast Castle”, which is not the case.
VORTIX >>>>>>>> Valdemar1902; literally vortix is top 5 pro player ezzzz; Valdemar1902 is a 1700 elo player? maybe top 32? top 16?
anytime top 10 does ANYTHINGGGGG vs inferior opponent IMO that data point is NOT useful to us mere mortals. NOW had Vald been Delhi and went 2 TC and BEAT THE GOD VORTIX??? Then!!! we’d be talking a whooollee lottt and part of that talk would be considering if Delhi 2TC is new META.
Edit
Just watched that whole game:
Vald did NOT go Song Dynasty 2 TC but instead Song Dynasty Mass Zhuge nu; so it wasn’t 2TC vs 2TC song; 2nd Vald kept pulling his WHOLE ARMY BACK during raids instead of pressing the issue and letting his reinforcements deal with the raids; The final push Vald over extended and it was GG b/c he got flanked by a group of knights/ghazi mix. Had Vald been ML? or BEE or Beasty?? China would have been an EZ win
It’s not right to share a link that many people don’t understand.
My conversation with Vortix is about what the Chinese civilization could do against Delhi’s 2nd TC.
If they go for a Song/Zhuge Nu rush, they could contest the Sacred Sites, but Delhi would have the upper hand in economy with the 2nd TC and free upgrades.
If they go for Song/2nd TC, Delhi would build a 2nd TC and take the Sacred Sites, being ahead in both economy and army. I still have some doubts here since I haven’t seen this situation yet, and the Chinese player might advance to Castles earlier and make Palace Guards, so that would need further investigation.
I doubt that Valdemar explored that second TC, and it’s true that there’s a skill gap, so we’ll have to keep watching to see if the Delhi vs. China matchup has truly changed.
