Mid/End Game, tenacious "getting the upper hand". Can AoE4 fix it?

[Huge5000RTSFan]

@AuroraStardaze

The concept in AoE3 with the ‘unknown’ map by Rikidimaru (forgive me if I misspell), is an approach I think could be explored as an ever-altered scene with almost endless variables, which could place any RTS manager/gamer into a different setting each time.
Each new game could therefor provide new experiences to grow from, each game.
Yes, each game.

+1
I think random maps , where the scene and ways alter would provide good variety.

@CastSheet777881

@Huge5000RTSFan

@mayjoben

@Huge5000RTSFan

Just as example Universe at War: Earth Assault from Adam Isgreen

I´m having troubles to even find any similarities from this game compared to AoE.

Personally i find it very difficult to compare RTS-games with such different time-settings. The middle-ages are well documented and you have clear references to build a game upon. Its not sci-fi.

@Huge5000RTSFan

What RTS do people play these days? As we can see by recent big launch of C&C Remastered, StarCraft Remastered and AoE2 Definitive Edition, people do clearly prefer those old “hard” games.

I wouldnt call C&C Remastered or StarCraft Remasered a “big launch”. How many new players does any of those 2 attract? AoE2 DE is doing good tho, because its just incredible timeless and really well done. Also the competitve scene is quite alive and microsoft is pushing the franchise(e.g. sponsoring tournaments, patches,…). They want to attract players for AoE4.
Do you expect a new StarCraft or C&C game in the next years? I wont.

People prefer those games because they played them when they were younger and now they can experience their beloved games with updated graphics/gameplay. And yes, all those games are good, but they came from a time when RTS games were AAA/AA and a major player in the gaming market. Those times are long over.

And as already mentioned, there is not much to choose(good games) from besides the mentioned titles. There are no AAA titles in RTS since years, most titles you post are maybe A-Titles at best. Even AoE4 wont be AAA. Dont expect that a indie studio with a new RTS-IP can match an already existing franchise with clear root that is well established like AoE.

@Huge5000RTSFan

This “casual friendly” approach is the reason why RTS is dead today.

The market is casual and always be casual. The majority of all games are casual friendly, devs would be stupid to gatekeep most of their audience.

@Huge5000RTSFan

Modern day games do have non of it. We can pick up there any modern day game and see exactly same issues to come up, lack of outperforming. We did end up there each time with quite awful games.

Because all “modern RTS games” came from indie-devs making their 1st RTS game(a new IP).
Compare RTS to MMORPG. 100’s of trash MMO from no-name-studios and maybe 2-3 good MMO’s every 5(or better make it 10) years. Gaming market is simply shifting.

First of all, maybe we should clarify some questions

Does casual market apply to RTS?
Already here it is a clear no, casuals are not going to play an RTS. Casual are going to play something like fruit ninja where you cut vegetables with fingers on phone, but not a game that requires skill.
Already there this entire idea is very wrong to begin with, for a strategy game.

Did ever a market for casual RTS exist?
We have seen a lot of RTS by now, but non of them is played by casuals. And I don’t think somebody who does play call of duty or assassin creed, will suddenly say, yes I need to play now a strategy game.
there is no current market for it, and wont be in the future.

I know very well the arguments for mass market,
they just don’t apply to the genre of RTS games.

What market did exist for RTS can can be established today or in near future?
I know considering how bad RTS are performing, that must sound devastating for people who plan to make an RTS, but there is a very big market, they do for very odd reason completely avoid for years:
professional gamers
lets be clear, RTS used to be market for professional players,
just looks how good next relatives to Realtime are doing like turn based and 4X Grand Strategy.

Why can’t Age of Empires 4 be a mega hit by be complex like Stellaris, Hearts of Iron or Age of Wonders Planetfall?

Stellaris and Hearts of Iron IV sold for millions and are selling for over 100 dollars different DLCs
And has on steam like 70.000 or 80.000 positive reviews.

Why can’t a real time strategy games have such success?
Maybe because RTS are made these days too simple for the professional games market?

Why should people buy another simple generic RTS?
They don’t have to, there are already too many such flops out.

Year of Rain, War Party, BANNERMEN, Re-Legion, Empires Apart,Ancestors Legacy, Sudden Strike 4, Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War III , Act of Aggression, Grey Goo, Command & Conquer 4: Tiberian Twilight, Empire Earth III, Age of Empires Online, Universe at War: Earth Assault.

RTS from last 15 years, do suffer from a very clear issue, they are generic and boring.

Is Age of Empires 4 going to be just another generic, simple and boring RTS?

There’s a LOT of casual players in the RTS genre. Forged Alliance Forever, Zero K, AoE 3, AoE 2, Starcraft 2 all have a substantial number of more casual players. Between singleplayer, campaigns, coop, arcade modes etc etc, competitive multiplayer is always far less common than casual gaming is. Saying there isn’t a casual market for RTS is just wrong.

I think that there are a lot of different factors that go into a game making it big other than pure gameplay considerations. Visibility, setting, the coordination for E-sports and money for tournaments can all have big impacts, to name a few. Few pros liked SC2 more than BW when it came out but they played it anyway because blizzard threw so much money at it and forced the E-sports angle. To be bigger than AoE 2 and draw a more hardcore crowd you probably need to have a game with some E-sports appeal.

But does it still apply for year 2020?

So how is the fail of Crucible to explain? The big AAA game from Amazon. Over 250 man team “included some developers from Blizzard”, 300 Million Dollar Budget, 4+ years development, less than 300 people online after not even a month. Crucible is this casual game for a popular genre with E-sports appeal. Maybe that’s not what people want to pay for, at least in year 2020?

Maybe RTS are just not longer in touché with the current player base?
If this “concept” was true, than millions of people should had buy Command & Conquer 4: Tiberian Twilight, with E-Sports translations, twitch streams, big YouTubers play it. For some very odd reason Relic basically did copy paste it with Dawn of War 3, with same flopped result.

As I did chat with dozens of my friends who still play C&C, Age of Empires, Dawn of War and Total Annihilation, everybody has a bad feeling what is going to happen to Age of Empires 4. Problem is, years of development, huge team and budget, massive advertisement appeal to casual and e-sports market, do not make a game successful, if the game in the end has no player base for it. The concept they did try to create, did lead so far to mediocre and too simplistic games.

If they have in mind a “casual appealing game”, who is supposed to buy a simplified and dumbed down version of AoE2? They all fail with this concept for over 15 years.