it enables faster researching of cavalier and paladin, which is a huge boon. but yes, the majority of the work comes from the berry into farm bonus.
I agree that itās good, but if you put the tech in imp, Frankās can still research it right away in imp and get fast cav/paladin. So I dont see this nerf as something that would actually affect their win rates that much.
But does it have any disadvantages?
The way I see it there are some minor advantages, and no reason not to do it.
3 Likes
Disadvantage would be bearded axe in castle age. In castle age the Franks would probably benefit more from plus 1 range on their axemen then they do from being able to produce knights faster.
Imagine being triggered by xbow and knights but having no trouble with a mangudai buff.
And thatās good. Unlike what people who want to remove whole bonuses or tech tree slots from them seem to think, the purpose isnāt to make them trash tier but to tone them down, and this change would be a good first step.
Except what Iām saying is I donāt personally think it would tone them down. I love playing franks, and I donāt want them trash tier, but realistically they need a nerf, and Iām not convinced the change would be a nerf.
2 Likes
Well it defo would. Make chivalry more expensive on top of that ig and you got a sensible nerf.
Not sure how you can say it definitely would be a nerf? Situationally it is, but situationally having bearded axe in castle age is a buff. Iād argue having stronger axeman in castle age would have more situational benefit then faster stables do.
Price change I agree with.
1 Like
Who use mass throwing axemen in castle? They kind of conflict with the knights and your boom because of their food cost (and bearded axe costs food too) while scorpions and heck even xbow donāt.
People who have Frankās cheap castles built around lol. Also you dont need mass to utilize plus 1 range. Your main force is still the kts
1 Like
The aspect I see a bunch of complaints about is that Franks are too good at doing Knights -> Paladin.
In some 1v1 match-ups getting bearded axe earlier might be an advantage. But those are mostly the matchups where Franks canāt go pure knights, and so their not at any particularly strong advantage.
Which is why I think itād be fine, even if it turns out to be a buff for random civ 1v1.
Franks can always get an eco nerf later.
3 Likes
In the proposed change, Chivalry can still be researched in imp. So the fast paladin benefit would still exist
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The reason I am not asking for a nerf to the berry bonus is an observation of the actions of devs. You see, berries, sheep, boars and deers among others are limited resources. So is stone and to a lesser extent gold.
If you observe these limited bonses, they are huge.
Mongols - hunt +50% or +40%
Britons - sheep +25%
Franks - berries +25%
Turks - gold +20%
Koreans - stone +20%
If you look at unlimited resources, on which a bigger bonus goes out of hand are:
Slavs - +10% farming (which I beleive is +12%)
Celts - +15% lumberjacks
Honestly, the devs would have set the Celt bonus to +10% but then they wonāt have an advantage if civ picks up Two Man Saw.
The Franks are strong because they have units which have bonuses and also have relevant economy bonus to support it. To understand what I am saying, let us look at examples.
Mayans - economy bonus as cheap archers; no advantage to archers until obsidian arrows
Malians - military bonus for infantry but economy bonus for archers
Britons - military bonus for archers, but no economy bonus for archers (the TC bonus is situational)
Ethiopians - military bonus for archers, economy bonus for ā? Idk what fits that eco bonus
Khmer - economy bonus for Cavalry, military bonus for Elephants - but Elephants are uncommon units by design, otherwise it is a solid civ for Elephants
Chinese - economy bonus for everything, military bonus for Towers?
The only thing I really agreeā¦ not the whole thing just the mangudai nerf, 12 attack fully upgraded is too much for a range unit that can also deal with Siege Ram easilyā¦ well at least in my opinion.
1 Like
I thought the guy meant all mangudai arenāt affected. But saw later on he meant standard ones are also buffed. Which is plain OP
Also somebody being against xbows and knights meta has absolutely nothing to do with mangudai
You know exactly what i think of you and your pile of garbage one upmanship
Well, Mangudai is as 100% tryhard sweaty meta than knights and crossbows so thatās why it does have something to do there.
And thatās precisely why I know what you think of me that I might as well live by it.