Mid game changes to Malians, Lithuanians and Mongols; Goths buff; Franks nerf

Malians: Buildings cost -10% in Dark, -15% in Feudal, -20% in Castle and -25% in Imperial Age (wrt wood only)

Reason: wood is like food. A critical resource in early game but an abundant resource in late game. So this actually nerfs the early game and puts them in a decent position in early Imperial when they need all their unit transitions. It is just the way Indian villager bonus is.

Now the change regarding Mongols and Lithuanians is in the same vein. They have great early game and a great late game. They struggle in Castle Age though. Their units aren’t much great and they have no economy bonus to back them up.

Mongols: All Cavalry Archers +1 pierce attack.
Elite Mangudai -1 pierce attack.
So there is No change to Elite Mangudai.

Lithuanians: Mounted units +1 melee attack starting in Castle Age.
Relic bonus caps out at +3.
It is a nerf to Leitis and Elite Leitis when 4 relics are collected since the Leitis aren’t affected by the buff. Their attck isn’t melee.

Please note that in both the cases it is a straight one time +1 and not like the Burmese bonus.

Goths: Give access to Plate Barding, making their Cavalry a bit more viable. Goths have an option other than infantry now, which doesn’t have any bonus or so.

Franks: interchange positions of Chivalry and Bearded Axe

Persians: interchange positions of Kamandaran and Mahouts

Every time that you propose here ends being like, why just why???
None of these civs need changes, they are completely fine.


Even the Frank and Persian ones?


The Malians are too strong in the early game in some map types like Nomad, where the wood savings on both Dock and TC are too much. Not to forget that they receive 275 wood like other civs to build TC but build it in 233 wood or so.


Lol moving mahouts to Castle age doesn’t nothing since you never use war Elephants in Castle age


And what, are OP by your experience or very niche cases?, and that’s the only eco that Malians have and makes them a good civ

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Am I taking it away? It is slightly weak in Dark Age, same in Feudal Age and better onwards? Ofcourse it is self balanced since the importance of wood drops off

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So you Buff them at the late Game where they become much deadlier? With the fact that they get everything in Castle age? Cmon


No real reason to do that tbh.

It’s almost as if it’s an intended weakness to prevent the early game to lead to the late game to easily.

Oh there is one, if castle age mangudai are much more effective then they are easier to use and keep alive for late game.

So now Lith players have even less incentive to ever make leitis again. Oh and imagine buffing the light cav of a civ that has top tier trash.

Let’s be real people don’t even use generic cavalier this much, only thing that change is they would hussar spam better. The change makes justice to the historic Goth cavalry but dunno for the game balance.

We aren’t in release days anymore, Kamandaran isn’t OP.


No strong opinions about this, i dont play Malians enough to know how this would affect them. Overall, i am not sure if they truly need a nerf other than fixing their nomad (just make it so that the bonus only applies once a TC is build, like many other civs).

And there is 0 reason to change this. Thats acutally what makes those civs fun: You need to exploit your early game advantage to build a lead, which you can give up in castle age to survive until imp.

Unneeded, and possibly very strong - their CA are already very potent, they just get overshadowed by the OP mangudai.

Lithuanians: Mounted units +1 melee attack starting in Castle Age.
Relic bonus caps out at +3.

This is an INSANE buff for lith: Its +1 attack for their hussar spam, +1 attack for their kts in early castle age (which is, btw, the point the struggle the most…) and it buffs their mid-lategame (as you pretty much never get all 4 relics needed). So you not only get +1 attack over the entire game, you get it fast: You get +1 immediatly, you get +2 with your first relic already and so on.

Yeah great now i not only have to defend against huskarl raids, but there is light cav mixed in as well. How much fun! FU lcav does not need any bonus, its a really strong raiding unit and giving it to an already rather strong civ does not sound smart.

Nice adjustment to their TG powerspike, was proposed several times.

??? one tech is mostly for lategame, the other does not do anything because no one ever researches it. Changing them does not change a thing.


Malians really don’t need a buff. they are in the perfect spot for a civ.

same here, Mongols don’t need a buff like this, and their Cav Archers would still go unused, so its kind of useless.

Dear god no. first of all this buffs their Light Cavalry line and their trash is already stellar. and frankly Lithuanians don’t need buffs at all. and Leitis are already barely seen as is, so i don’t know why you’re trying to kill them even more.

I’m honestly fine with the Franks change.
i think Goths and Persians need slight buffs but i don’t think this is the way to do it, if anything yours is a nerf to Persians.


I actually age with changing bearded axe and chivalry (small nerf to Frank Paladin play, and adds tactical options in castle age)
And with interchanging the positions of Kamandaran and Mahouts (castle-age goldless xbows are silly even if they aren’t OP, the the game shouldn’t make it harder to use not-post-imp WE than is necessary thanks to the silly decision to make a 1-pop 200-food 70-gold unit)

But when these are presented at the end of a list of junk, without reason given, I don’t expect anyone to be convinced.


The Frank idea isn’t even his, that’s why it’s good.

Uh since when castle age war eles are a problem?
Regardless war eles are for BF or team games, and in both situations Persian xbow are way too weak to bother making.

he wants to see war elephants in castle age, but because they cost 200 food they wont ever see play.


Persian and Frank’s tech interchange seems good.

Goths is actually a good idea. They are the one trick pony and this would a tzally help alleviate the problem and gives room for potential huskarls nerfs.

I remember historically goths had good cav was mentioned many times in the forum.

These Mongol and liths changes arent any good in my opinion and while the Ethiopian ones seems reasonable I don’t think the civ is doing bad or too good. It’s just change for fluff, so we could also not change anything.

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franks? yes. Persians is a nerf to a civ that doesn’t need a nerf.

because how many non cavalry civs actually use cavalier…

very true, but this game isn’t historically accurate, and never has. and giving them cavalier with all upgrades ain’t gonna do much because most people don’t use cavalier unless they get some sort of bonus for it, or are on the way to paladin.

I agree. This game is not historically accurate, yet is fun

I appreciate the logic but think it makes little to no difference. By the time it really kicks in wood is nearly worthless. It won’t make Malians any easier to play. They will stay one of the highest skill civs. But i say let’s try it out anyway…

I can support this. But i dont think mongols deserve a buff.

In EVERY SINGLE other situation its a huge buff. So no. Relic cap should be reduced to 3 anyway. And they can get a buff somewhere else instead of having such an RNG bonus at 4 relics.

I can support this

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and how do you propose buffing them after reducing a bonus that isn’t guaranteed, and only applies to two units?

I agree that Frank’s need a nerf, but idk that switching their techs would do much. Faster stables is obviously great. But the cheaper castles, faster berries, free bloodlines +, and free farm upgrades. Seem like the thing really making them op.