[Minor Natives topic] Post here your ideas for every single minor natives so the devs can look at

I meant “improvements” as technologies and not the “unit improvement upgrade”. They are far too cheap and far too poweful. And their big buttons are free which is nuts. A 100c is the same as reviving a explorer and would give more value to the Native Lore card.

Udasi are sikh. Bhakti movement has indeed strong bonds with Indian history but still, as you had said, it’s weird having a native tribe with two anti-infantry units. Unless they review one of them for another role, I’d go for your optimal solution too.

(why not make a new nat around the Qizilbash?)

Who knows? Probably due lore issues. People have complained about Sufi and elephants for a long time. Plus:

The origin of the Qizilbash can be dated from the 15th century onward, when the spiritual grandmaster of the movement, Shaykh Haydar (the head of the Safaviyya Sufi order)**, organized his followers into militant troops.

???
Tiger claws? Even the wikia says “Even with Reinforced Gauntlets, Tiger Claws are far from the best native units.” but anyway:
I’m enjoying the changes to the usage of natives although it looks they are tackling single issues. All changes they’ve made in the last months are 99% positive although I don’t feel they analyzed the “whole picture” when updating a couple of stuff.

They are useful indeed and very affordable. I’m not saying they are bat but the effects are very common and repetitive. I mean: how many techs, natives and cards that reduces training time or just straight up damage buff we have already? If we compare the price and perks of each tech to the european ones or D.E. civs we’ll see they are “fine, I guess…”-tier
I hope they improve it somehow!

We have Mapuche Bolas Riders and Mapuche Ironwood Clubmen, both anti-cavalry.
I think it is not a problem.

But it is! But to clarify I shouldn’t have tied the issue to their bonus alone but what they can do within their roles. My bad.

  • Mapuche soldiers are different classes that have different perks but keep same role of anti-heavy cavalry. One is a Doppelsoldner with big siege potential and the other one is a dragoon with slowdown perk.

  • War Elephants and Tiger Claw are basically the same class with literally the same roles: A heavy cavalry with 6.0 speed and a shock infantry (which is heavy cavalry) with 6.0 speed, both with x2 bonus vs LI. In the end they are the same.

Plus, TigerClaw sucks vs everything except light infantry while Mapuche have flexibility in 1v1, vs groups, vs buildings, vs ranged units, vs melee units…

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I dont have hostorical knowledge but i like to see more new livestock animals, and attacking animals from native civs or tech that allow more livestock.
Every reagon of the world have differend animals like camels and war elephant this should be increased i think. :slight_smile:

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That is something you’d have to tech-by-tech and evaluate individually. Off the top of my head I can think of several that don’t fit that assessment (all of Vasa for example). And it’s not like there aren’t Legacy nats with powerful techs. What makes Royal Houses strong generally is they have a large suite of options: 2 units, 4 techs and a big button.

I also don’t mind the Big Buttons being free, since they’re on a significant timer. iirc the Habsburg BB gives you 1 Magyar Hussar every 5 minutes.

However, since you brought up Native Lore, I have to say I’m not a big fan of their changes. Instead of removing the coin cost of native techs, it reduces their cost 20% across the board. This takes what was an interesting and strategic card and makes it much more boring and less valuable; not only compared with the old native lore, but also the similar Asian card Native Learning (-50% native techs).

I get why they did it: the devs introduced several high-cost native techs that were coin only. But that only compounds my frustration because it’s a “fix” for a problem they themselves introduced.

Well, I just disagree

Precisely. Somethings are fair and some are way too good.

Yes. Good point. Their units are powerful and some are beyond everything we have seen so far. Mercenary level of unit.

That’s the thing,the big buttons by themselves are good. If they were “once in a match” they should be free, but since they are under a timer, a small cost suits them well in my opinion. Speed boosting your army, buffing villagers for quite some time, stunning enemies… these are all effects of Wonders available for 200w, but you can access them at any time even if you lose the building.

I get why they did it: the devs introduced several high-cost native techs that were coin only. But that only compounds my frustration because it’s a “fix” for a problem they themselves introduced

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And about Native Lore: Yep! It would’ve been much more balanced if devs had changed the cost (e.g: that 1500c Merc tech → 800w, 800c).

Dealing with singular things (the techs) instead of touching a global thing (Native Lore) should have been the norm. But it’s not their choice sometimes.

Quick update: the most pressing issues with Tengri techs have been addressed. Shock inf train speed is now reduced along with cav, and the ranged cav attack rate is no longer bugged & it increases cav and pet speed by .5

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Okay!

The new alliance/ conversion method makes allying with natives much easier, however I’ve noticed a small but important issue with it.

When you are walking past a Settlement you are inadvertently converting it, even if you don’t want to.
Because of that, even when you are moving your army or sneaking an ambush you are always alerting your enemy you are passing by that area. That led sometimes to annoying situations because the settlements now act like a global radar. This is specially annoying in soem maps where the settlements are in front or lats of your opponent’ base

A couple of solutions for that:

1- you convert the socket only if you select to convert it and not if you get close.

2- OR as I had said before: just give us a wagon/travois to create a NTP once and for all. Coming from the Explorer/Town Center

Overall it’s a very positive change but we have this issue to be addressed in a near future.

I think that the native TPs are already practical and useful, but now it is necessary to improve each specific native so that each native is useful and not just an ornament on the map. It’s the reason this forum exists after all.

It seems that what they wanted is to give more originality to the Navajo natives so that they would differentiate themselves from the other native skirmishers. I had proposed that they could mount/dismount from a horse. It would fit well with their culture and the style of play that they could offer.

It could be a unit with low fire rate while on horseback, and with a slight bonus against cavalry and infantry, while on horseback.

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Claiming a site should be limited to heroes and civilian units only (explorers, villagers, scouts, healers, envoys, etc). Generally, an army marching through an area is traumatic for the locals and does not engender goodwill. Missionaries and scouts are the ones who make first contact with local peoples, and units like Priests and Envoys could benefit from a utility boost since they are currently kind of lacking.

Military units converting a site claimed by your opponent back to neutral would also be reasonable. It would be as if they intimidated the locals to stay out of the conflict. That way, converted settlements would function as a warning beacon as if you had local informers, but neutral settlements wouldn’t give away enemy positions like they do now.

If they take this approach, the sockets should have someone to interact with like those pictured on the left, or like the guards at the royal house settlements.

I couldn’t disagree more. I think they should scrap the building of Trade Posts at settlements and commit entirely to the new capture/conversion and alliance establishing method. They could further differentiate it by making the building look like the Native/Royal Embassy rather than a Trade Post.

The cards for Trade Post wagons/travois could be preserved by changing them to Trade Wagons instead. Trade wagons could build on trade routes as now but also have the option for a one time resource exchange at native settlements. The exchange could consume the wagon to claim the site and grant a resource mix like 50 wood, coin, food, and experience/export/influence. I think that would be more useful than the current wagons which are totally useless once all the sockets are claimed.

The Advanced Trade Post card could also be preserved by making it also apply to Native Embassies and converted settlements.

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