[Minor Natives topic] Post here your ideas for every single minor natives so the devs can look at

[SimilarOwl0320]

@ScEv0lution

Well, the Veteran upgrade for Royal Houses is actually in line with the cost of the Elite upgrade for natives with 2 units (125w 125c vs 150w 100c), although it’s funny since the veteran upgrade only affects the age 2 unit (the age 3 unit is already Veteran). The only exceptions being Jagielion, where both units are age 2, and Hannover, who has 3 units 2 of which are age 2.

But the Guard upgrade (350w 350c) is priced in line with the 1 unit Champion upgrade (400w 300c) rather than the 2 unit (500w 400c) so I wouldn’t mind a small increase either (e.g. 450w 450c). Still, I’m not convinced this is either a major source of brokenness or a bottleneck keeping the units from being viable, so any change would be based on parity.

I meant “improvements” as technologies and not the “unit improvement upgrade”. They are far too cheap and far too poweful. And their big buttons are free which is nuts. A 100c is the same as reviving a explorer and would give more value to the Native Lore card.

@ScEv0lution

As for the issue of the War Elephant, it’s nice they didn’t remove it from game but it’s certainly an odd situation. I get having an Indian unit far from the Indian subcontinent, and the other Indian nats, is thematically weird. Having a new minor civ may be the optimal solution, but in some ways defeats the point of the change (why not make a new nat around the Qizilbash?). Maybe there’s a new War Elephant nat coming at some point, since they just introduced a new Asian nat randomly. But if this is meant as a permanent change, I still think the more sensible choice is to move them to Udasi. The choice would be about the same weight thematically but prove more satisfying from a gameplay standpoint I think. War Elephant + Chakram feels a more natural comp than War Elephant + Tiger Claw.

Udasi are sikh. Bhakti movement has indeed strong bonds with Indian history but still, as you had said, it’s weird having a native tribe with two anti-infantry units. Unless they review one of them for another role, I’d go for your optimal solution too.

(why not make a new nat around the Qizilbash?)

Who knows? Probably due lore issues. People have complained about Sufi and elephants for a long time. Plus:

The origin of the Qizilbash can be dated from the 15th century onward, when the spiritual grandmaster of the movement, Shaykh Haydar (the head of the Safaviyya Sufi order)**, organized his followers into militant troops.

@ScEv0lution

Still, the Tiger Claw is 100% one of the strongest of the Legacy nats

???
Tiger claws? Even the wikia says “Even with Reinforced Gauntlets, Tiger Claws are far from the best native units.” but anyway:
I’m enjoying the changes to the usage of natives although it looks they are tackling single issues. All changes they’ve made in the last months are 99% positive although I don’t feel they analyzed the “whole picture” when updating a couple of stuff.

@ScEv0lution

I’m mostly fine with the techs as presented. I agree they’re not the most original, but they’re in a unique combination and their cheap prices mean they’re very likely to be picked up.

They are useful indeed and very affordable. I’m not saying they are bat but the effects are very common and repetitive. I mean: how many techs, natives and cards that reduces training time or just straight up damage buff we have already? If we compare the price and perks of each tech to the european ones or D.E. civs we’ll see they are “fine, I guess…”-tier
I hope they improve it somehow!

[UpmostRook9474]

@SimilarOwl0320

it’s weird having a native tribe with two anti-infantry units.

We have Mapuche Bolas Riders and Mapuche Ironwood Clubmen, both anti-cavalry.
I think it is not a problem.

[SimilarOwl0320]

But it is! But to clarify I shouldn’t have tied the issue to their bonus alone but what they can do within their roles. My bad.

• Mapuche soldiers are different classes that have different perks but keep same role of anti-heavy cavalry. One is a Doppelsoldner with big siege potential and the other one is a dragoon with slowdown perk.

• War Elephants and Tiger Claw are basically the same class with literally the same roles: A heavy cavalry with 6.0 speed and a shock infantry (which is heavy cavalry) with 6.0 speed, both with x2 bonus vs LI. In the end they are the same.

Plus, TigerClaw sucks vs everything except light infantry while Mapuche have flexibility in 1v1, vs groups, vs buildings, vs ranged units, vs melee units…

[RockingCube36]

I dont have hostorical knowledge but i like to see more new livestock animals, and attacking animals from native civs or tech that allow more livestock.
Every reagon of the world have differend animals like camels and war elephant this should be increased i think.

[ScEv0lution]

@SimilarOwl0320

I meant “improvements” as technologies and not the “unit improvement upgrade”. They are far too cheap and far too poweful. And their big buttons are free which is nuts. A 100c is the same as reviving a explorer and would give more value to the Native Lore card.

That is something you’d have to tech-by-tech and evaluate individually. Off the top of my head I can think of several that don’t fit that assessment (all of Vasa for example). And it’s not like there aren’t Legacy nats with powerful techs. What makes Royal Houses strong generally is they have a large suite of options: 2 units, 4 techs and a big button.

I also don’t mind the Big Buttons being free, since they’re on a significant timer. iirc the Habsburg BB gives you 1 Magyar Hussar every 5 minutes.

However, since you brought up Native Lore, I have to say I’m not a big fan of their changes. Instead of removing the coin cost of native techs, it reduces their cost 20% across the board. This takes what was an interesting and strategic card and makes it much more boring and less valuable; not only compared with the old native lore, but also the similar Asian card Native Learning (-50% native techs).

I get why they did it: the devs introduced several high-cost native techs that were coin only. But that only compounds my frustration because it’s a “fix” for a problem they themselves introduced.

@SimilarOwl0320

Tiger claws? Even the wikia says “Even with Reinforced Gauntlets, Tiger Claws are far from the best native units.”

Well, I just disagree

[SimilarOwl0320]

@ScEv0lution

That is something you’d have to tech-by-tech and evaluate individually

Precisely. Somethings are fair and some are way too good.

@ScEv0lution

What makes Royal Houses strong generally is they have a large suite of options: 2 units, 4 techs and a big button.

Yes. Good point. Their units are powerful and some are beyond everything we have seen so far. Mercenary level of unit.

@ScEv0lution

I also don’t mind the Big Buttons being free, since they’re on a significant timer

That’s the thing,the big buttons by themselves are good. If they were “once in a match” they should be free, but since they are under a timer, a small cost suits them well in my opinion. Speed boosting your army, buffing villagers for quite some time, stunning enemies… these are all effects of Wonders available for 200w, but you can access them at any time even if you lose the building.

I get why they did it: the devs introduced several high-cost native techs that were coin only. But that only compounds my frustration because it’s a “fix” for a problem they themselves introduced

.

And about Native Lore: Yep! It would’ve been much more balanced if devs had changed the cost (e.g: that 1500c Merc tech → 800w, 800c).

Dealing with singular things (the techs) instead of touching a global thing (Native Lore) should have been the norm. But it’s not their choice sometimes.

[ScEv0lution]

Quick update: the most pressing issues with Tengri techs have been addressed. Shock inf train speed is now reduced along with cav, and the ranged cav attack rate is no longer bugged & it increases cav and pet speed by .5

[SimilarOwl0320]

Okay!

The new alliance/ conversion method makes allying with natives much easier, however I’ve noticed a small but important issue with it.

When you are walking past a Settlement you are inadvertently converting it, even if you don’t want to.
Because of that, even when you are moving your army or sneaking an ambush you are always alerting your enemy you are passing by that area. That led sometimes to annoying situations because the settlements now act like a global radar. This is specially annoying in soem maps where the settlements are in front or lats of your opponent’ base

A couple of solutions for that:

1- you convert the socket only if you select to convert it and not if you get close.

2- OR as I had said before: just give us a wagon/travois to create a NTP once and for all. Coming from the Explorer/Town Center

Overall it’s a very positive change but we have this issue to be addressed in a near future.

[OperaticShip743]

I think that the native TPs are already practical and useful, but now it is necessary to improve each specific native so that each native is useful and not just an ornament on the map. It’s the reason this forum exists after all.

@ScEv0lution

I find it funny the devs have spent DE lightly tinkering with the Navajo here and there, and have now apparently thrown up their hands in defeat. Maybe this is in response to people raiding with the Mexican card?

It seems that what they wanted is to give more originality to the Navajo natives so that they would differentiate themselves from the other native skirmishers. I had proposed that they could mount/dismount from a horse. It would fit well with their culture and the style of play that they could offer.

It could be a unit with low fire rate while on horseback, and with a slight bonus against cavalry and infantry, while on horseback.

(Stealth skill cannot be used in mounted mode)

[M00Z1LLA]

@SimilarOwl0320

When you are walking past a Settlement you are inadvertently converting it, even if you don’t want to.
Because of that, even when you are moving your army or sneaking an ambush you are always alerting your enemy you are passing by that area. That led sometimes to annoying situations because the settlements now act like a global radar. This is specially annoying in soem maps where the settlements are in front or lats of your opponent’ base

Claiming a site should be limited to heroes and civilian units only (explorers, villagers, scouts, healers, envoys, etc). Generally, an army marching through an area is traumatic for the locals and does not engender goodwill. Missionaries and scouts are the ones who make first contact with local peoples, and units like Priests and Envoys could benefit from a utility boost since they are currently kind of lacking.

Military units converting a site claimed by your opponent back to neutral would also be reasonable. It would be as if they intimidated the locals to stay out of the conflict. That way, converted settlements would function as a warning beacon as if you had local informers, but neutral settlements wouldn’t give away enemy positions like they do now.

@SimilarOwl0320

1- you convert the socket only if you select to convert it and not if you get close.

If they take this approach, the sockets should have someone to interact with like those pictured on the left, or like the guards at the royal house settlements.

@SimilarOwl0320

2- as I had said before: just gives a wagon/travois tô create a NTP once and for all.

I couldn’t disagree more. I think they should scrap the building of Trade Posts at settlements and commit entirely to the new capture/conversion and alliance establishing method. They could further differentiate it by making the building look like the Native/Royal Embassy rather than a Trade Post.

The cards for Trade Post wagons/travois could be preserved by changing them to Trade Wagons instead. Trade wagons could build on trade routes as now but also have the option for a one time resource exchange at native settlements. The exchange could consume the wagon to claim the site and grant a resource mix like 50 wood, coin, food, and experience/export/influence. I think that would be more useful than the current wagons which are totally useless once all the sockets are claimed.

The Advanced Trade Post card could also be preserved by making it also apply to Native Embassies and converted settlements.

[RatcicleFan]

Idk what they could be called, but maybe they should add an Arab-speaking minor civ. It’d fit African maps much better than Sufis (who now speak Turkish thanks to the War Elephant being replaced with the Qizilbash) imo.

[PieTaster13]

I have played a lot of native opening with inca, italy, and french. Imo all natives are viable and most are underrated with the exceptions of: carib blowgunner and cheyenne rider, which I believe you should simply never make unless you’re at max pop or get them for free.

It would by nice if mantlets and blowgunners were standardized to have 12 range, but at the least the unit shooting poison darts should do a bit of poison damage, maybe reign its speed to 4.75 to compensate for these 2 changes.

Cheyenne riders are simply worse camel riders, camels have lower cost, higher resist, higher base damage and multipliers. I guess they do have the multiplier upgrade, but in a standard game you’re not paying 700 res to give a single unit you can only make 10 of multipliers that should be standard.

Then again, they could have standardized outlaw pop with africans, but ended up nerfing them for a time, maybe it is purposeful they leave units like this.

Also someone should correct the seminole bowman range on the wiki to 16 not 12.

And thank you devs for making navajo viable!

(SO to klamath/nootka and jagiellon/phanar, best combos)

Also the asian natives could see more play if certain maps were changed to have multiple natives instead of 1, like I think central plain for example could have rattan + tiger claw instead of x4 rattan

Also also, some natives function as second tc’s (berber, cree, oldenburg), it would be nice if we could guarantee the safety of these foreign workers with atp changed to garrison natives for damage like a tc. As a bonus it will hit port stagecoach degen and cause them to adapt or get buffed. Tbh I’m just trying to find an excuse to go atp on a non 4+ tp line map. /j

[SimilarOwl0320]

@PieTaster13

Tbh I’m just trying to find an excuse to go atp on a non 4+ tp line map.

The new Native Settlement alliance definitely helped me use more natives, but I mostly go for technologies unless I play as africans. In the end Mercenaries and Natives were meant to complement your army (or suplement them if you already had units in those roles).

@PieTaster13

I have played a lot of native opening with inca, italy, and french. Imo all natives are viable and most are underrated with the exceptions of: carib blowgunner and cheyenne rider, which I believe you should simply never make unless you’re at max pop or get them for free.

Honestly, at this point of the game, I don’t think natives will ever be useful outside specific strategies/civs as you have said. Even as Hausa/Ethiopia I just use them when I have spare influence because they don’t cost natural resources.

In legacy, only Brits, French and the TAD civs were self sufficient (imo) while all others lacked specific roles that needed complement. Forgotten Empires’ philosophy of designing new civs goes against it and nearly all D.E. civs have everything and when they don’t, a single card can bypass it, which I personally think it is a mistake.

This is not a problem per se, but when there are that many “independent civs”, then the minor civs become irrelevant. Nevertheless, I’m enjoying the new alliance method and I’m happy about the latest improvements the devs are making.

[OperaticShip743]

@M00Z1LLA

Enables your explorer to use the Scouting Falcon ability which deploys a falcon that provides LOS over an area (basically a stationary version of the Balloon ability).

I think they also used falcons as hunting animals, because they could attack and have bonuses against animal treasure keepers.

I think they hunted for the purpose of using the pelts of wolves and coyotes.

Hunting with falcons should give double experience when killing animal treasure keepers.

@M00Z1LLA

The Mongol Scout unit could also have the ability by default to make it a bit more unique.

I think they should give a free Mongol Scout once you build the TP in Tengri Settlement. It is also enabled to create.

[RatcicleFan]

They should also replace the Mongolian units’ lines (at least the outlaws and Mongolian Scouts) with actual Mongolian dialogue, instead of Chinese.

[SinkingApple935]

@SimilarOwl0320

Because of that, even when you are moving your army or sneaking an ambush you are always alerting your enemy you are passing by that area.

This is intentional: Beware! Moving near a neutral Settlement will change its color on the minimap, alerting a vigilant opponent to a potential raiding parties’ location, so be stealthy! See the section just below the first pictures.

[SimilarOwl0320]

It shouldn’t be like that in my opinion.

I mean it was intentional but I don’t think it improves gameplay at all.

In my opinion you should capture them if you choose so.

[M00Z1LLA]

You should have to take a more active role to get intel out of them. They should only be convertible to your side by heroes a civilian units and military units should only be able to convert them from enemy control back to neutral. That way it would only give away the movements of enemy armies if you’ve already established a loose alliance with them but not if they march past a neutral settlement.

[PieTaster13]

I have one thing to say and that is about house of wettin’s trabant, the age 2 halberdier with the deflection passive and siege resist. I don’t think the resist fits its availabilitity in age 2 where there is next to no artillery, which begs the question why you’d make it in age 2. Are you making it for siege? Because the trabant’s siege is significantly lower than the halberdier and pike, it’s equivalent to the musk which I guess would be fine if it didn’t have 1/5th the versatility with 3x the gold cost. The one thing it has going for it is slightly higher hp, in which case you’d think the availability would be the other way around with age 2 cuirassiers and age 3 trabants. That is the change I would like to see, or even changing native treaties to give a cuir instead.

[SimilarOwl0320]

I like the natives but still didn’t have the time or memory to analyze the ones from Europe.

At first, some quite a few of them seem to be at the mercenary level of power.