It is just my personnal sense of balance. I consider that having an edge for something should be balanced by something. To continue the exemple of fast Castle time, it is a strategy that is performed at the cost of low defense and lack of military.
I do agree however that my suggestion isn’t the best.
If relic carrying missionary has slightly less speed than monks, it could work. Not too much slower than the monks though.
Why does it need slower then Monks? I dont get that part. I understand a missionary with relic needs to be slower then missionary without relic. But i see no reason why such units needs to be even slower than monks.
Because the missionary can get to the relics faster than Monks, that speed could be too much of a boost.
That’s not necessary, it’s enaugh that they go at the same speed of monks, the advantage is to get there faster.
The idea is to make the unit useful. If it is back even slower then monks, it isnt even a buff. In the end you have to fight for relics. You most likely cant just take the relics. So speed is really not everything.
It is not like other civs sometimes also have an edge on taking the relics. Some civs can go for crazy fast FC and take relics. That is their benefit. Spanish will have missionaries. It is not like Spanish need much gold. They have good trash too for trash wars.
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If they get a movement penalty when holding the relic to move at the same speed as monks it would be fine (maybe only a little bit faster than monks would be ok too).
But if there is no movement penalty it would become OP… Pretty much insta-win any relic war on Arena.
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My thought on this is how the missionary could “escape” easier. Picture these two scenarios:
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You go take relic with normal monk, literally any enemy unit appears (like in groups or something), monk is snipped, even if with, idk, scout backup. Monk dies, you lose relic.
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You go take relic with donkey monk, literally any enemy unit appears (like in groups or something), donkey monk drops the relic and run. Missionary “survives”, you lose relic.
While the missionary is slower than knights/scouts, it can still run a good amount before utterly dying — enough to reinforce, and save his life, maybe?
In the end, the risk of losing units from searching relics, for the Spanish player, is definitely smaller. The characteristic monk snipe could not happen, even if the enemy scared you away from the relic. How it can translate in the game i’m not sure.
Also, i believe missionaries are better at exploring than monks due to speed (didn’t do The Math™, but i’d be happy if you did). Maybe an edge for open maps like arabia, where the relics can be anywhere in the unexplored areas?
Why not increase cost or train time (or both) of Missionaries and give them ability to unmount the donkey. If they do they are regular monks, that can do regular monk stuff but the donkey is vanished. Then they should be a viable unit with a good use in relic war or a smush without being op. I think missionaries carrying the relic mounted is too much effort to animate and would look weird 
The moment you unmount the missionary can be crucial decision making and it would certainly be funny as well seeing monks run away wishing they still have a donkey.
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If it wasn’t for arena, I’d agree. But here the fight for relics in early castle age is so decisive for the outcome of the game that the suggestion doesn’t seem reasonable to me. Spanish already is quite a strong civ on arena and even if you massively reduce the movement speed of missionaries after picking up a relic, the initial speed to get there just would be such a huge advantage. I mean it’s a map that has been set fix in the pool from the beginning and also there are arena tournaments. Balancing should consider these things.
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Not only arena, imagine team games, Aztecs, Lithuanians, Spanish, a viable constellation of civs. With Lith TB they do not only get their missionaries out faster as any other opponent could get their monks out, but the missionaries also move faster back and forth with the relic, and then slinging the relics to the Lithuanian player is no problem, and then you have do not only face the relic income from aztecs, + the trade bonus of spanish but also +4 Heavy Cav from Lithuanians. The fight for relics is in DE even more important than it was before and is a crucial element of the game, there should be no auto-gain for Spanish. Remember, Relic victory is still a game-mode, even though a lesser played one.
Its not like Spanish are bad and need that buff, in fact they would be totally fine if they did not possess Missionaries at all. But with having access to them, but seeing them used so little, its a little stain on their vest, but its not like they need missionaries desperately. It would just be nice, to give them actual use, without big buffing Spanish.
In general, I dont think you should have to face 5 relic spanish on any map, they have really good late game and perfect trash. Then always being 5 relics behind, is just shuddering imagination.
I don’t think it would be an auto-gain, only slightly better chances to get the relics. Just as earlier uptime isn’t an auto-gain, nor the Burmese vision bonus. Also you have to invest ressources into the monastery and missionaries, so the opponent will have the better economy. Or he could go and contest the relics, which is totally possible, because scouts can be trained in feudal age.
Another point not to forget: missionaries have the cavalry armor class, so spearmen get +15 bonus damage against them (=two-hitting them), while also countering the enemy’s scouts! So it could be a valid strategy to just guard the relics with spearmen against Spanish.
Therefore, relics-gathering missionaries don’t seem to be OP nor uncounterable to me. And if they turn out to be, then just reduce their speed to find a nice balance!
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Its a huge advantage not a slight, and a monk with a relic would outrun any spear. And the invest in garding your relics you wanna get with food- units is already worth it, delaying boom for the opponent while spanish just can buy normal 100g units to get the relics. It is just a bad idea to let missionaries pick up relics and then even not changing their movement-speed to snail afterwards is even worse. The missionary change should not affect the game that much, spanish are balanced already, its just a cosmetical change that we see those units more. Think of something diversifying the game style for the one civ, without making all others frown upon. I like the dismount button for missionaries of mine very much, coupled with 60 seconds train time for those, the monks still need to mount the donkey with some help of his monk friends. And then we have fun moments with missionaries and especially for far away relics they can be useful to shorten the time needed for one trip but it will not affect all relics. Just think how much Lithuanians and Aztecs due to their faster monk production can dictate relic fights.
Well, as I tried to explain, it’s an advantage, that can be balanced very accurately by reducing the speed to exactly this point that they are not OP. Without any speed nerf, they will very likely be too strong.
I’m not completely sure, if I got this sentence right, to be honest…
Of course it will hurt your economy, if you decide to contest the relics. That’s already the case. The main difference would be that you have one more unit type to counter the missionaries than you have for monks. Missionaries are literally countered by every feudal age unit besides skirmishers!
Aztecs do not have any faster monk production. They “dictate” relic fights just by putting a higher emphasis (= investing more ressources) on relic gathering.
But I indeed consider your idea of missionaries dismounting into monks to be interesting. That would be very unique…
You wouldn’t. I generated a couple of arena maps just to see how far the relics are from both bases and not in a single one would the 1.5x speed of missionaries allow them to get to the opponent’s closest relic first. Maybe to the second if you’re lucky. And even then you have to hope he doesn’t have spears guarding the relic, or a scout that’s 1.5x faster than your missionary and will kill him before he gets home.
All in all, I find the discussion pointless, as a Malay player with an extra villager will reach castle age 91 seconds before you, the exact time it takes to build a monastery with one vill and train a monk/missionary. By the time you have yours out, he’ll likely have already snatched the neutral relic and will be on his way to one of his own (or both of his own with two monks). Advantage Malay, but we don’t hear about nerfing their monks.
3 Likes
So its more like certain 4-1. And I think still you would not take the last relic immediately because its not worth the investment and you can save it from be taken somehow differently or you just dont care because 1 relic versus 4 is already a huge advantage for the other so he can just have the 5th anyhow and you focus on killing him before the relics come in.
And its Malay singular bonus on Arena ofc they are not called to be OP especially because they were nerfed before 
All just because Viper made one silly comment about a fun feature and a stain on the white vest of spanish… This is clear overcommitment.
If we only talk about missionaries bringing back relics with normal monk relic speed ok, but still it would look silly and would make missionaries still strong compared to regular monks. Just because they can get regularly two relics in with two fast paths. They should just unmount the donkey, say goodbye to their friend and send him back home to the monastery while bringing the ring back to mordor
But then why make a missionary if it’s one use only? Plus it make 0 sense, why would he get rid of his donkey when he could just use a bridle or something to keep it?
Of course they would be stronger than a monk in certain situations. But isn’t that the idea of unique units? If there is a regular unit that is better in every situation, then the unique unit would never be used (as it is the case with the missionary, at the moment). Ironically, the missionaries would still be worse in the one thing, they are named after: doing missionary work (=converting)!
Maybe it would, at first. But remember, we got used to self driving siege weapons, riderless war elephants and many other visual inaccuracies. Also, in Age of Mythology there is a relic carrying centaur, and it doesn’t look too weird…
I think it could work, if the missionary slow down to the standard monk speed when he grabs the relics it wouldn’t be broken.
You would still have a small and not OP edge on getting there first, and being more able to escape enemy scouts if necessary, those 2 little bonus are worth the speed drop while carrying the relics.
heal and convert how is that 1 usage?
pikemen good against cavalry only, single usage, why have it in game? imo bad argument