Lots of beef online about the Mongols, and there are some serious problems with this civ… And the biggest isn’t the Town Center rush.
The good Mongol player will be an expert at micro… the good Mongol player will have a ridiculous economy…
I’ve seen several 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 games where a single Mongol player disrupts (significantly) the entire opposing teams, by himself. Having a Mongol ally is a crazy advantage in 2v2, 3v3, etc…
Long story short, there should be WAY more skill required to take advantage of the “shoot while moving” nature of this unit. It’s just too much of a pain in the ■■■ to deal with. Pretty much nothing else in the game is more difficult to deal with, and yet it’s a really simple unit for them to get and use.
You don’t have to use a formation to attack while moving…
You don’t have to have an upgrade to attack while moving…
You don’t have to A-Click to attack while moving…
You don’t suffer ANY consequences like slower speed or weaker HP to attack while while moving
I get it… this very unit was a big part of the Mongol horde… it’s a fine idea. But it should be harder to do this. It should require an upgrade… You should have to put the unit in “attack while moving” mode… Just those two things will increase the skill level required to have a unit that is so tough to deal with… And so the dude just can’t micro you to death with it, you should lose a tiny step of speed. I should have SOME CHANCE to catch you.
Tons of these really good to great players are playing Mongols for a reason… for this unit, and for this economy. That’s it. One unit is the entire appeal.
This is a balance issue… I’ve read some stuff online that’s like “ok build a bunch of walls… put towers on the walls… put people on the walls… place archers all over your base and surroundings area so he can’t just run through”… etc. You are literally defining a balance issue there. I shouldn’t have to do 15 things and and literally cover my entire town in strategically placed archers for when the “run through” occurs to shoot them. At that point I have expended tons of resources, planning, and effort to deal with a single unit.
I am hoping to hear some valid suggestions on how to counter this in a way that seems reasonable…
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You counter Mangudai with regular archers. Or outposts. Preferably both. Pretty cost effective to do so as well. This stops them from being able to dive in on your villagers. They’re expensive for the Mongol to lose. If the Mongol is going heavy on Mangudai I’d play defensive that way and then get to Castle Age and build a couple Springalds. Generally spamming one unit type doesn’t work that well in this game.
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This, I main mongols and you have no idea how effective regular archers are, they are almost too effective, its crazy how good they are.
Also Mangudai are hard to micro because you low key have to be watching at all times, get caught out for literally a second and you’ve lost over half your army.
They are so expensive, and the only way to effectively mass them early game is sacrificing ovoo stone.
I think they are in a good place. Albeit a little weak because loosing them (very easy to do) is a little too punishing imo. Especially for those with standard or weaker micro for their elo.
I got rekt against Mongols/Franks with Dehli and HRE.
The lack of mobility of our army cost us our whole eco, twice in the game.
The cost for mangudai is maybe high early game. But as you set up trade and pasture, this gets easier and easier.
Coutless times in team games from 2v2 to 4v4 I saw an allied mongols, just spamming mangudai, and was able to just give us giant batch of gold and resources.
Since this mechanic can’t be counter effectively (You have to pile up archers, fortifications and siege to hit them, and only if the mongol archer engage).
Even then, if they get like 15-30 mangudai in you eco, they will melt villager faster than your units can chase them.
I think of two options to balance that:
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Lower their speed and buff horseman speed. Making horseman an effective counter, able to chanse and kill and soak the arrowfire If you intercept the raid in time.
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Make the firing while moving a cooldown ability. This would make the abily to chase or flee more inpactful and less memey and broken.
Of course, if such a nerf would happend, they would have to be buffed somewhere else to compensate.
Completely agree, being able to attack while moving is just a mechanic I can never see working in aoe, at least not in the early-mid game, every game its just impossible to deal damage to the Mongol player as they can keep you at your base, basically killing or idling all ur vills. Even if u use cav, they’ll just follow you along and your cav will be gone by the time you get to their base. Thats just the issues with Mangudai, the cheap 2x trade is just stupidly op, and being able to move landmarks while they are under attack is op. Utilising the 2x units for the price of one is just icing on the cake for them. I believe the Mongols are just way too strong in the hands of even a semi-decent player, and stronger than French by a fair margin. Tcs only costing wood as well is dumb, it should remain wood and stone, and make the mongol player have some time where they cant utilise 2x units if they want extra tcs.