Any Ideas you have?
I think the 200 supply start is this faction’s trait, so I guess devs would not change it.
So we need another approach, how about making mongol start with 0 woods?
and watch tower cost should be nerfed from 70 to 100.
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I don’t think the tower itself is the main issue, it’s the fact the mongols can get so many spearmen in due to cheap double production which allows them to easily place towers down while not using that many resources. Even if it fails for them you will still be behind due to the fact that you would’ve had to spend more resources making units than the mongol player. They can either increase the stone needed for double ovoo production or nerf the ovoo itself.
3 Likes
Mongol bonuses just stack up so hard on hybrid maps, that the early game is basically won by default with the enemy pinned in base snowballing you down without watercontrol into a really strong castle age transition with stronger eco on food/gold (fish/steppe) for the mongol.
No houses necessary, cheaper towers, auto stone trickle for tower emplacements, double recruitment for the price of 1.
All of these bonuses result in easily locking and taking down the enemy dock for not even half the cost/time of what other civs have to invest.
Meaning, to try to contest what the mongol is doing you need to pay twice as much.
Simply put: you can’t contest it in any shape or form.
He has more military, more economy and a better techgame because of it.
It’s a slap in your face of “just accept that he is allowed to play with water and play with docks, while you are not”.
It’s not even close to be balanced in this regard and mongols need some conceptional redesigns because of it.
Simple nerfs won’t do it, since english vs mongols e.g. is a really solid matchup for the english on landmaps and could swing it so hard in englishs favour.
There needs to be some redesign when it comes to the double recruitment and mongol towers.
It completely breaks the game on hybrid maps, with how much steam mongols enters the early game without loosing any momentum in midgame or lategame transitions.
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The double recruitment is not free. 1 villager = 50 food, 2 villagers = 50 food/150 stone (for some reason this one is triple the price). 1 horseman = 100 food, 20 wood, 2 horsemen = an additional 120 stone. Yes, that stone is gathered “for free” after spending 150 wood for the Ovoo but the gather rate is always capped and spending has to be managed between unique techs, tower emplacements and unit production. I still think this all means they get a big early game timing push that favours them on hybrid maps but their advantages have to be looked at in proper context with other civ advantages, with mongol downsides (no keeps, no walls, worse trebuchet, locked stone gather rate) and not just in isolation.
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The whole problem of the Mongols is based on the fact that, with the ovoo and the speed of construction of the TC in nomad to start making villagers, it is equivalent to 2 more villagers in the starting game, that added to the fact that the towers cost 70 wood and the ovoo gives duplicity to any nearby building by paying stone, you will tell me if they are dominant or not. 2 possible solutions.
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Ovoo stone collection speed is lowered (25%) (this would affect all upgrades).
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The stone cost of all military units is increased (50% more stone) (economic and military improvements are not included).
One of those 2 options would give.
I don’t understand what you’re saying here - can you explain more?
I feel like Mongols are slightly behind at the start of the game since they have to move and place the town centre before being able to train any villagers. It’s nothing major, but can cost them maybe 10-20 seconds before being able to make villagers compared to other civs. They may get lucky with map resource placement and have two resources they can place the TC next to though.
On the topic though - I’d be fine with just changing the Mongol outpost cost from 70 to 100 wood like the others since they’re already saving wood throughout the game in not having to build houses.
The Mongols start out with exactly the same villagers as all civilizations except China, and yes, it takes about 10-15 seconds to assemble the TC and a bit longer to build the Ovoo, but I said in my message that the Ovoo (105 of stone per minute which is more than 2.5 villagers and serves as a wild card for any building) clearly influences and compensates for that initial mini-loss.
One thing that players often forget, is that while stone gathering seems free, it isn’t so simple. The ovoo is a central aspect of the Mongols which also comes with restrictions, when you want to pull it off. Placements, influence space and a messy relocation (bad pathfinding AI) all are things to keep in mind. Also, you can’t produce stone faster until imp.
This mainly resolves in it being used as a fire and forget kick start, while it becomes less and less important in the games progression. I seldom see a second ovoo with relocation, as its never worth the hustle.
Therefore, I would like to see a nerf and a buff to flatten out the line. Some naive thoughts : the ovoo is a unique building with slots, not influence range. You can easily “Dock” a certain amount of buildings or replace them. Higher stone cost for units with the ovoo production accelerating over time. The ovoo looses its effect once the stone is depleted, but can relocate with the docked buildings easily. Research times don’t stop when packed up, but the process itself takes longer.
Overall stuff like this to make the civ more interesting, while bringing the early aggression potential more on line with other civs. I just fear a straight out nerf to early will make them go from s to trash tier, as this is also their most effective defense.
2 Likes
I know how mongols work and what the costs are ty vm.
It’s not an l2p issue or “you just didn’t get this one thing”.
Ofc it’s not entirely free on double recruitment, but the fact that they need no houses, cheaper towers, no stone gathering for emplacement and free double recruitment time to time is an insane eco timings boost, that again: results you in auto winning hybrid by locking down the enemy by default.
The ressource/time investment by mongols in this situation is so increadibly low to pull this off, that mongols on hybrid maps is just about “either he autowins or throws the game”.
Sick and tired to enter top100 in 1v1 and then dropping by 200 spots again cause I get mongol oponents on hybrid maps 8 times in a row cause everyone abuses it.
Even ptitdrogo made fun of it in a sad way when interviewed as the castle cup winner with pig.
I already mentioned that it’s a conceptional issue, since on land maps they seem strong and probably need some tweaks as well, but are nearly not that hard “on rails in your face op under any circumstance” compared to hybrid maps.
Their bonuses are stacking so hard in early on hybrid maps, that there is just nothing you can do.
He’ll get water, your water gets locked down, he always has more units than you for a lower cost/time investment and is super safe because of it.
Walls are absolutely not necessary in that regard, when you just have free momentum and advantage over advantage without any risk involved.
As long as you react to what the oponent is doing anyway.