Mongols need Mangudai cost Reduction to match is worth

It is not the micro flavius game mode, remember that a horseman can with three archers, remember that you will also have infantry and heavy cavalry, and mangonels (in late game you cannot fight with equal resources)
It is not a unit but the civilization itself.

Horsman is the counter unit so yes it can 1 v 3 and archer while also costing a total of 120 ressource not including gold. While a Mangudai is a total of 160 and almost dies to 1 archer in a 1v1 while costing double the cost. A Rus Horse Archer does way better against 1 archer.

A Rus Horse archer is 80 food 40 wood, has 85 HP, 12 atk, 2.1 atk speed, 4.5 range tiles, 1.62 speed, A Veteran Mangudai is 120 food 40 gold, has 105hp, 6 attack, 0.88 atk speed, 3.5 range tiles 1.56 speed.

The only upside is the hp by 20 which is only helps them tank the intial hit to get in range of what they need to fight and attack speed which doesn’t do much cause it makes it to where the damage mitigation is higher from any armor upgrades and or bonuses/buffs since the base damage is so low for a castle age unit.

In that regard the Mangudai dont do enough for how much they cost. Because as you said in late game you cant fight equal ressources in 1v1. In team games you can. And Mangudai fail as soon as there is a mass of archers with Knights or Horsemen. Even with godly micro, you lose more ressources then the other, cause you have to be in range of archers to kill the stuff you want to kill with Mangudai while your playing against a decent player. And if you miss micro just once they get trashed by mangonels, spears, knights very quickly and easily.

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Of course, you are not going to mention the easiest micro in the world, move while attacking

you are right but what happens when the numbers increase also there is a resource difference between them only 2 advantage they have is shooting while moving and their unique damage techs,actually mangudai is good if they make it little bit better it could be op so im taking my words back

Easy doesn’t mean value, moving away and towards archers is dumb cause they have more range, their speed of 1.56 is also much slower then knights and horsemen if you haven’t noticed, so they get caught by knights and horsemen making the micro part easy and worthless at the same time. Being able to get more Mangudai wont make them broken when making them cheaper to get for a civ that already struggles with its eco when you compare it to other civs.

Especially since there has been a lot of direct and indirect Mongol nerfs like the amount of stone on map being reduced by 20% in season 2, but the cost of double production has not been reduced as well while it has increased for things like traders. And the Trade for Mongols getting triple nerfed in the previous patch and then got nerfed again in this pup patch.

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I underline all the seasons in which Mongols have been in the top, all but one, but only the mangudai matters, no :wink:

You literally listed all the ones where Mangudai didnt get reworked, and April2022 patch is when Mongols were bad until they got the ger at the start to help them actually be able to compete with other civs after the previous nerfs. Very short period

Then trade became a thing for mongols because trade itself is OP and now the trade civ
bonus for mongols got nerfed with the stone cost for double production of traders on top of the Trade being nerfed for all civs. Every time mongols are decent they get nerfed even if they weren’t the best civ. These nerfs are weird cause they cant wall the trade.

And out of all the civs its the only one were the Unique units werent used much, and now not at all. Balance isnt about not playing a unit its to have it viable for certain situations or worth using in general in which they are not at the moment just like the Grenadiers berfore this PuP patch which are over buffed now.

In both the April2022 patch and the April 2023 patch they go from being in top 3 to Dead last in Winrate and pick rate without some OP mechanic in the game to boost them, like tower rush when towers were strong, trade which now got nerfed, Siegeworks and building mangonels on the field when siege was super strong, which got nerfed and siege got reworked. That’s not normal.


And I spent more resources!
And lost more…
The enemy will be happy enough for a great trade as I did not trade from that 10 archers but lost more valuable Mangudai.


That unit makes Mongols actually play in feudal but it doesn’t fix the core issue the civ has, it doesnt scale that well in castle and worst in imperial. It makes them be able to compete agaisnt english in feudal and play good agaisnt abbassid a bad match up. Agaisnt French and Rus it is great in feudal but sucks in castle. And Terrible in imperial. The Unit is busted in Feudal, but can be countered they get wrecked by spears and crossbows. And against knight civs the are only really good for raiding which requires good macro so you don’t lose them and heal.

Not only that you are comparing a horseman unit to an early knight unit. As a horseman that unit is not bad it kill villagers quite fast and in a combine composition like horsemen archers you can fight man at arm compositions with the bonus damage to heavy better in Feudal. But they do a lot of damage to non armored units. Out of all horsemen in the game they destroy crossbows and archers the most, with 24 damage per hit base line and smack villagers with 12 damage per swing.

Just because they have bonus damage against armored units doesn’t mean they are suppose to counter it. Horseman units are suppose to counter archers and it does. So yes they are way more cost efficient then Mangudai by far.

your comparing 300 food + 500 wood vs 1200 food + 400 gold.

Fair assement there.

also I rather just hit that castle age button instead as mongol.


“Mongols are the worst civ currently in competative.”

One of very top AOE4 players in the game.

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they only read what suits them :wink: :wink:

who plays at POP CAP with mangudai?

By the time you reach Population Cap as mongols, you are in Imperial age!

You’ll be making Handcannoneers and Siege instead of mangudai.
If you have cavalry, you have Lancers.
Rarely ever mangudai, unless you wanna raid econ. Never in a fight.

Both Lancers and Handcannoneers are far more Pop and Cost-efficient than Mangudai.

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I will be condescending with the Mangudai, I have calculated that reducing its production to 25 seconds helps it since it has double production with the ovvo

They don’t need stupid buffs that have a possibility of breaking their balance, they need a cost reduction to make them worth producing and use.

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cost reduction and double production of ovvo, that is breaking the game xd

Using stone for Units is not efficient, it is used at the begining of feudal or castle to get units out fast to help out or put pressure then mainly used for towers or improved upgrades not enough stone on map or fast enough gather by ovoo to waste for units until imperial if the game gets there while you have white stuppa.

Also making the cost so low that you can spam it with double production is dumb, only someone like you would think of that.

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Well, the start of feudal can define the game, in addition to having a kahan bonus, mobility, higher attack speed, attacking while moving, it just needs to be cheap to break the game, no
due to condescension, the production time is reduced and that’s it

Reducing the cost doesn’t mean making it cheap. Rus horse archers aren’t cheap and Mangudai at the same total cost would still be more costly because they cost gold and not wood. It doesnt have to even be the total cost of the Rus Horse Archer, but for its effectiveness that’s the cost it should be.

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Historically, the Mongols conquered the Abbasid Empire and its continuation.
So they should be able to win them easily.
Only Mamluks defeated the Mongols.
Not the Abbasids.