They cost more then Rus Horse archers and are by far worse, the only units they can fight well agaisnt is spears. They could fight other units and help keshiks who get demolish by spears if you could actually, mass them up a bit. They are not cost efficient and cost way to much for what they offer after the nerf/re-work.
Please give them the same total cost that Rus Horse Archers have of 120. Making them 80food 40gold it will make Mangudai actually usable in the weak state that they are in feudal and castle age.
Yep, I agree Mangudai is the worst-mounted archer currently.
It only counters spears and traders and I agree with that.
Every other unit smashes Mangudai.
I think, at this state, the devs need to add heavy-mounted archers to all civs that had mounted archers.
or change Mangudai mechanically and make it the same as Rus horse archer.
I really dislike the current Mangudai.
It is weak, paperlike, and not affordable.
Really, offers nothing!
i find that wrong too rus cant have stronger horse archer than mongols.Mangudai only positive ability is can shoot while moving but still i think magudai is the god of the raiding they are cool if you can ambush enemy with numbers of them
The mangudai loses against archers on equal resources, but when the population limit is reached the mangudai wins (the archer does not have the population space to equal the mangudai’s resources).
the real issue here is the discrepancy between their viability in 1v1 vs team games. Would it be a terrible idea to give them slightly different stats in 1v1 and team games?
why mangudai can not be stronger in one field, but weaker in another?
Is not it logical?
actually, i believe if they balance range (give +1) or unit pathfinding.
Mangudai will return and will be OP.
I think mangudai’s issue - it’s too clunky.
yes, it would be a terrible idea.
imagine you learn 1vs1 so hard, but “suddenly” it does not work in TGs.
you will crash your PC.
That just makes the game to complex for no reason its like having french knights be weaker just for team games
10 mangudais against 10 archers, who wins? yes, the mangudai
No once archers reach a mass, Mangudai dont do much to them because of the range difference they only win when they fight with equal resource cost in imperial with all upgrades or if archer have to kite.(Which means there are other units involved) They are double the unit cost yes, but are only 1.5 the archer in actuality. They only become worth the cost in imperial which makes the unit worthless in 1v1 and not cost effective in team games until imperial age, by which if you get rushed with mass archers or heavy units which any civ can mass better cause of better eco of every civ by default or civ bonus, you are dead weight.
It is not the micro flavius game mode, remember that a horseman can with three archers, remember that you will also have infantry and heavy cavalry, and mangonels (in late game you cannot fight with equal resources)
It is not a unit but the civilization itself.
Horsman is the counter unit so yes it can 1 v 3 and archer while also costing a total of 120 ressource not including gold. While a Mangudai is a total of 160 and almost dies to 1 archer in a 1v1 while costing double the cost. A Rus Horse Archer does way better against 1 archer.
A Rus Horse archer is 80 food 40 wood, has 85 HP, 12 atk, 2.1 atk speed, 4.5 range tiles, 1.62 speed, A Veteran Mangudai is 120 food 40 gold, has 105hp, 6 attack, 0.88 atk speed, 3.5 range tiles 1.56 speed.
The only upside is the hp by 20 which is only helps them tank the intial hit to get in range of what they need to fight and attack speed which doesn’t do much cause it makes it to where the damage mitigation is higher from any armor upgrades and or bonuses/buffs since the base damage is so low for a castle age unit.
In that regard the Mangudai dont do enough for how much they cost. Because as you said in late game you cant fight equal ressources in 1v1. In team games you can. And Mangudai fail as soon as there is a mass of archers with Knights or Horsemen. Even with godly micro, you lose more ressources then the other, cause you have to be in range of archers to kill the stuff you want to kill with Mangudai while your playing against a decent player. And if you miss micro just once they get trashed by mangonels, spears, knights very quickly and easily.
Of course, you are not going to mention the easiest micro in the world, move while attacking
you are right but what happens when the numbers increase also there is a resource difference between them only 2 advantage they have is shooting while moving and their unique damage techs,actually mangudai is good if they make it little bit better it could be op so im taking my words back
Easy doesn’t mean value, moving away and towards archers is dumb cause they have more range, their speed of 1.56 is also much slower then knights and horsemen if you haven’t noticed, so they get caught by knights and horsemen making the micro part easy and worthless at the same time. Being able to get more Mangudai wont make them broken when making them cheaper to get for a civ that already struggles with its eco when you compare it to other civs.
Especially since there has been a lot of direct and indirect Mongol nerfs like the amount of stone on map being reduced by 20% in season 2, but the cost of double production has not been reduced as well while it has increased for things like traders. And the Trade for Mongols getting triple nerfed in the previous patch and then got nerfed again in this pup patch.
I underline all the seasons in which Mongols have been in the top, all but one, but only the mangudai matters, no
You literally listed all the ones where Mangudai didnt get reworked, and April2022 patch is when Mongols were bad until they got the ger at the start to help them actually be able to compete with other civs after the previous nerfs. Very short period
Then trade became a thing for mongols because trade itself is OP and now the trade civ
bonus for mongols got nerfed with the stone cost for double production of traders on top of the Trade being nerfed for all civs. Every time mongols are decent they get nerfed even if they weren’t the best civ. These nerfs are weird cause they cant wall the trade.
And out of all the civs its the only one were the Unique units werent used much, and now not at all. Balance isnt about not playing a unit its to have it viable for certain situations or worth using in general in which they are not at the moment just like the Grenadiers berfore this PuP patch which are over buffed now.
In both the April2022 patch and the April 2023 patch they go from being in top 3 to Dead last in Winrate and pick rate without some OP mechanic in the game to boost them, like tower rush when towers were strong, trade which now got nerfed, Siegeworks and building mangonels on the field when siege was super strong, which got nerfed and siege got reworked. That’s not normal.
And I spent more resources!
And lost more…
The enemy will be happy enough for a great trade as I did not trade from that 10 archers but lost more valuable Mangudai.
That unit makes Mongols actually play in feudal but it doesn’t fix the core issue the civ has, it doesnt scale that well in castle and worst in imperial. It makes them be able to compete agaisnt english in feudal and play good agaisnt abbassid a bad match up. Agaisnt French and Rus it is great in feudal but sucks in castle. And Terrible in imperial. The Unit is busted in Feudal, but can be countered they get wrecked by spears and crossbows. And against knight civs the are only really good for raiding which requires good macro so you don’t lose them and heal.
Not only that you are comparing a horseman unit to an early knight unit. As a horseman that unit is not bad it kill villagers quite fast and in a combine composition like horsemen archers you can fight man at arm compositions with the bonus damage to heavy better in Feudal. But they do a lot of damage to non armored units. Out of all horsemen in the game they destroy crossbows and archers the most, with 24 damage per hit base line and smack villagers with 12 damage per swing.
Just because they have bonus damage against armored units doesn’t mean they are suppose to counter it. Horseman units are suppose to counter archers and it does. So yes they are way more cost efficient then Mangudai by far.
your comparing 300 food + 500 wood vs 1200 food + 400 gold.
Fair assement there.
also I rather just hit that castle age button instead as mongol.
“Mongols are the worst civ currently in competative.”
One of very top AOE4 players in the game.