Move Cartography to TC instead of Markets for better TG experience

One of the reasons TGs suck is lack of allied vision in Dark and Feudal age. Tying allied vision to TCs instead of Markets will help in better coordination and smoother games. This is esp important since most of the TGs are played with no voice communication. In nomad start, allied vision will be activated once your TC is up.


A lot of people have suggested this or have it immediately from start, since it exists in practically all other strategy games.

But I think it’s another legacy issue that might take a while before Devs/community accepts it.

Besides the obvious logic behind it, I primarily want it so that Portuguese can get a better TB, even if it’s something trivial like the Incan one


Just remove the tech and give team vision by default. It is sort of silly that it is even a thing. Every single person I introduce to AoE2 finds it weird and annoying that there isn’t team vision by default.


How about a res panel that allow you to see other ally res?


I want the Portuguese TB to make outposts not cost stone.


I remember there is an RTS where you can see the resources of an allied by clicking on one of his buildings. This would be nice in aoe2 too. Or is it unwanted because of diplomacy games ?

Maybe the devs could add an option in ranked games like for the civ choice: if a majority of players checks it, the game starts with shared team vision.

Then it would be clear for everyone what the community wants.

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Warcraft 3?

Though I think not having all the same things as other RTS-es is fine. I don’t know if I’d support the removal of no vision, as it’s kind of a core part of the game. At least, what will Portugal’s new team bonus be? ;p

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While it’s not unprecedented to have Team Bonuses that only work in a team setting, I think the existence of the Spanish TB of more trade makes the free cartography bonus that Portuguese receive look really silly in comparison. Like, one has a fundamentally game-warping effect on a team game setting while the other is a mild convenience that ceases to exist all together, sometimes pretty soon into the game (assuming folks are doing fast castle strategies that advance through Blacksmith/Market). The other vision-related bonuses are also superior, like the Burmese one to show relics or the Vietnamese one to reveal enemy TCs (granted, that one is civ-specific but you can just ping for your allies to show where you see the starting spawns).

If I had to guess a replacement for Portuguese TB, you can go with something like Gunpowder units having more Line Of Sight. It’s silly but there’s no shortage of fairly inconsequential TBs.


Yeah, might be.

If team vision is set as the standard in ranked team games, I don’t know whether I would use it or not in SP / lobbies either. Probably yes because I am used to keep default settings, but not sure.

Yeah, Portuguese would need a new bonus. I think there are plenty of options such as:

  • gunpowder units +2 LOS
  • outposts cost no stone
  • docks work 20% faster
  • gunpowder units move 5% faster
  • Feitoria available

Not sure what would be balanced, but I wouldnt mind a weak bonus.

I think that only the Portuguese Team Bonus strictly only works in a team setting, as we can technically use trade-related bonus in diplomacy games and SP, with the market of a defeated opponent (which is not rare in campaigns). But yeah, these boni are 99.999% of the cases useless in 1v1 ranked.


What if we start the game with -1 team los but researching cartography made it so you could see full allied LoS

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Do you mean you can only see the allied units and buildings, without their LOS ?
That would be funny, worth a try at least in lobbies/SP to see how it feels.


i dont think its necessary, i dont think it needs to have this level of intricacy for something that should be in the game. there’s a wide array of methods that could be implemented, even just stagger it from feudal age, if not directly from the start. i doubt theres anything that will convince me that resistance to it, is based purely on the pre-existing mechanic for so long and/or the lack of understanding of other RTSes. in the same way players were resistant to a number of changes

fine, fine, too water focussed, mildly OP, extremely OP

yeah this has always been confusing to me, that there are such strong TBs, on strong civs (britons), and weak and/or uesless TBs, on weaker TG civs (eg incas)

for example as part of the briton overhaul some people have suggested, the briton TB should become a civ bonus, and their TB should be something weaker like “MAA +2 LOS”

I mostly just want Cartography to still have a use beyond the only reason you build a market other than to enable the Castle Age or do early market barter.

If maybe Cartography gave all units +1 or 2 Los for a cheap price that could have a lot of value and still prevent the tech from fully disappearing.

If it has to go I won’t be too sad but market play seems less and less desired other than to pinch in a few resources through the exchange rates until it’s time for big trade routes.


It’s largely a feature of vanilla/Conq civs, innit, back when the developers had infinite developmental space they could hand out such strong bonuses, not knowing that 20 years later it would become a massive design hindrance where new civ TBs rarely if ever infringe on the old ones, because it’s not easy to top 20% faster stables or archery ranges. At the same time, it feels like said Huns or Britons cannot be touched so drastically as to remove said bonuses, because it would spark a massive uproar from the people who’ve been around the game for a very long time and it just “is what it is”. While I don’t personally necessarily advocate for removing some of those incredible TBs, I would totally accept a trim (like reducing the percentage by half), if for nothing else than to encourage a little diversity (or to at least even the playing field a little).


Isn’t this actually the opposite, as players learn to actually use the market we’re seeing more market usage for quicker castle times etc

Nevermind that markets were recently buffed, making this is even more viable

And just because something isn’t used by the playerbase, doesn’t mean it isn’t good (or even excellent) Eg siege and monks