Movement & Range - Discussion, Balance, Suggestion?!

[Wolfstack]

Hi all, its been 3 years since the game DE version was launch and many more years since the original was launched in 2010 if im not mistaken.

Combat and balance has been a constant topic of “debate” for a long time, the things I bring foward today may or may have not been discussed before. Without futher blabla lets get into it.

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Movement
Movement speed in units seems wierd in some cases, for example “again” Rodelero has 6 while is clad in plate, while a Gendarme has 6.25, and Hussar 6.85, Chasqui has 6.5 while Native scout has 5.5.

Acording to google:
the average speed of humans is 13 km/h for males 10 for females, record is 44.7 km/h from an athlet
the average speed of horses is 16-27 km/h Gallop, 42-48 km/h run, record is 70.3 km/h from a racing horse

Note: Yes we both humans and animals have evolved and probably these mesurements are not a kin to the time period but still it shows a lil comparison.

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Range, Los and rate of fire (rof)
Lets start from the last, Rof (rate of fire) how much time a ranged unit takes to shot-recharge, a unit with 3 vs a unit with 2.5, the last will get 1 extra shot eventually, around 2-3 shots if im not mistaken.

Most ranged infantry units have 3 rof (longbow, pavisier, musketeer), cannons usually have 4+

Then I ask should a bowman and a riflemen take the same time to shot?

I would say no, first what type of bow? a longbow takes strengh and skill to pull and shot, a short bow (aka composite) takes less obviously, what about a musket where you have to put gundpowder, pour the bullet and then push everything down and aim-shot.

Range and Line of Sight
Range, how far a unit can attack, los how far a unit can see. usually they come hand in hand being los usually a few points up than range.

Ranged units are varied the lowest range around 12 the longest being 40+ usually for buildings and ships. So lets see some examples;

• 22 Longbow 26 los
• 18 Yumi 22 los
• 16 Pavisier 20 los
• 30 Arrow K 32 los
• 12 Musketeer 16 los
• 26 Falconet 30 los
• 24 Outpost 24 los

I got several comments about this, 1st and most notorius is Arrow Knight the unit is bad joke in many senses but definetly its range, function and many more aspects of it are bad. Yes some may argue its actually a “bolt” of sorts thrower but seems to have the range of scorpion or balliestae.

2nd are defensive buildings that even when fully upgraded shoting canon balls their range remains the same. Another aspect is how most gunpowder units have rates high rates of fire but ranges of when the weapons were created, musketeers shoting at the range of aoe 2 gunpowder units.

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[dansil92]

if overthinking was a crime you’d be getting a life sentence

[Wolfstack]

Death sentence prob but you know what they say if you dont use it rots haha.

But just see that Arrow Knight unit anoys me, drives me mad and gives very bad feelings in general.

[Ekdal1378]

I dont know why, they die to any infantry or melee cavalry. Even artillery kill them. They are slow and need to spread for sieging while are bad vs walls due to its lack of AoE.

[Jonasnee8581]

@Wolfstack

Hi all, its been 3 years since the game DE version was launch and many more years since the original was launched in 2010 if im not mistaken.

2005, WC was 2006 and TAD 2007, last patch was 2008 or 9 i think?

@Wolfstack

Note: Yes we both humans and animals have evolved and probably these mesurements are not a kin to the time period but still it shows a lil comparison.

horses yes, humans no. the only notable difference between us and people 500 years ago is diet, we are much less likely to be malnourished which tends to make us taller and healthier.

also since you are talking about speed i think its worth noting that 1 of humans main advantages is that we can run for very long distances, much longer than pretty much any animal.

@Wolfstack

Most ranged infantry units have 3 rof (longbow, pavisier, musketeer), cannons usually have 4+

since you specifically mention longbows its worth noting they got 1.5 ROF.

@Wolfstack

Then I ask should a bowman and a riflemen take the same time to shot?

sometimes they do, something they dont, yumi fire at the same rate, longbows faster.

@Wolfstack

I would say no, first what type of bow? a longbow takes strengh and skill to pull and shot, a short bow (aka composite) takes less obviously, what about a musket where you have to put gundpowder, pour the bullet and then push everything down and aim-shot.

i feel like you are missing a sentence here, what is your point? that guns should shoot slower? that bows should shoot faster? its a very fluffy statement.

yes guns shoot slower, on the other hand they can be preloaded and are generally much more devastating. the early modern periode is commanders trying to figure out how to make up for the slower rate of fire and technical advances to guns and gunpowder.

@Wolfstack

Range and Line of Sight
Range, how far a unit can attack, los how far a unit can see. usually they come hand in hand being los usually a few points up than range.

Ranged units are varied the lowest range around 12 the longest being 40+ usually for buildings and ships. So lets see some examples;

• 22 Longbow 26 los
• 18 Yumi 22 los
• 16 Pavisier 20 los
• 30 Arrow K 32 los
• 12 Musketeer 16 los
• 26 Falconet 30 los
• 24 Outpost 24 los

I got several comments about this, 1st and most notorius is Arrow Knight the unit is bad joke in many senses but definetly its range, function and many more aspects of it are bad. Yes some may argue its actually a “bolt” of sorts thrower but seems to have the range of scorpion or balliestae.

arrow knights exist to give them a chance vs artillery, its a game after all. id also argue all the ranges in game are shortened for balance reasons typically by a factor of about 8, in artillery cases more. similarly rof is much better than IRL. this is for gameplay reasons, it wouldn’t be fun firing from end of the map to the other and spending a minute to reload artillery.

@Wolfstack

2nd are defensive buildings that even when fully upgraded shoting canon balls their range remains the same. Another aspect is how most gunpowder units have rates high rates of fire but ranges of when the weapons were created, musketeers shoting at the range of aoe 2 gunpowder units.

its for balance, they need the range early to make them actually viable so people dont just run around them and lategame they cant just be allowed to outrange art.

also if we go realism route im not sure how well it would go firing cannons from as small of a platform as the outpost is.

[Wolfstack]

Ty for taking the time to read and answer,

@Jonasnee8581

2005, WC was 2006 and TAD 2007, last patch was 2008 or 9 i think?

Dont know, though thats a long time aint it?

@Jonasnee8581

horses yes, humans no. the only notable difference between us and people 500 years ago is diet, we are much less likely to be malnourished which tends to make us taller and healthier.

also since you are talking about speed i think its worth noting that 1 of humans main advantages is that we can run for very long distances, much longer than pretty much any animal.

Thats debatable though, lets not stray from our main point xD.

@Jonasnee8581

since you specifically mention longbows its worth noting they got 1.5 ROF.

to be more specific in the comparison:
Fulani 1.5/3.0 Long range
Arrow K 1.5
Yumi 3.0

@Jonasnee8581

i feel like you are missing a sentence here, what is your point? that guns should shoot slower? that bows should shoot faster? its a very fluffy statement.

Its like the glass of water some may see it half empy, others half filled, blabla it goes in both directions depends on the viewer.

@Jonasnee8581

yes guns shoot slower, on the other hand they can be preloaded and are generally much more devastating. the early modern periode is commanders trying to figure out how to make up for the slower rate of fire and technical advances to guns and gunpowder.

True, as in game most gunpowder units will “unload” their first wave without loading.

@Jonasnee8581

arrow knights exist to give them a chance vs artillery, its a game after all. id also argue all the ranges in game are shortened for balance reasons typically by a factor of about 8, in artillery cases more. similarly rof is much better than IRL. this is for gameplay reasons, it wouldn’t be fun firing from end of the map to the other and spending a minute to reload artillery.

Yes I understand ranges/rof are scaled due map/gameplay and time-wise.

Arrow Knights are an Aberration and mind you I like very much Aztecs BUT is like saying: “lets give them horses cus they lack them and horses are needed”. There are other ways in which Aztecs could deal with Artillery, as Incas with a “runner” type of unit, or a fast unit like Eagle Knights.

Why are the an Aberration? well again they have 1.5 rof, 30 range even more than falconets, they are slow and weak, (are they some kind of ballista? or why do they have more range than even longbows), historically speaking are none existant, the only existant of them is their suit and the weapon which obviously didnt have such range, sorry they do bother me.

@Jonasnee8581

its for balance, they need the range early to make them actually viable so people dont just run around them and lategame they cant just be allowed to outrange art.

also if we go realism route im not sure how well it would go firing cannons from as small of a platform as the outpost is.

Well I mean yeah most art were “attached” to walls in fortress, but at least they could get 3 more range to be on par with falconets

[dansil92]

i mean if we’re talking explicitly about arrow knights being stupid then yeah, I’d much rather see erks get a multi vs artillery and treat arrow knights more like a skirm/grenadier unit that acts like a lategame slinger replacement and sieges at a decent range, honestly.

As for the rof, well most archers have 1.5 and most gunpowder is 3. certain archers get 3 rof but generally have better firing animations in exchange. the rule isn’t exactly perfectly consistent but its fairly standard.

[Etarm369]

@Wolfstack

Movement speed in units seems wierd in some cases, for example “again” Rodelero has 6 while is clad in plate, while a Gendarme has 6.25, and Hussar 6.85, Chasqui has 6.5 while Native scout has 5.5.

Acording to google:
the average speed of humans is 13 km/h for males 10 for females, record is 44.7 km/h from an athlet
the average speed of horses is 16-27 km/h Gallop, 42-48 km/h run, record is 70.3 km/h from a racing horse

Yes, that’s one of the less realistic aspects of the game (I also add that camels shouldn’t be faster than horses.). But AoE is not a simulator or a game that pretends to be realistic but a historically inspired video game. So, in this game it is to be expected that there will be many “historical errors” and “biological errors” that are really balance, aesthetics, political correctness, marketing, etc, decisions.

I think the issue of cavalry and infantry speed is common to the vast majority of war strategy video games in real time. Maybe it would be interesting to create a game where the true difference in speed between humans and horses is ###### ### that is not an option for AoE 3.

[Ekdal1378]

@Wolfstack

There are other ways in which Aztecs could deal with Artillery, as Incas with a “runner” type of unit, or a fast unit like Eagle Knights.

Well, AKs are that kind of unit “counter artillery bow” that simulates a culverin.

About faster RoF, the issue is the general ise on DE. Aztec and lakota RR need them to compensate the lack of artillery; swedes didnt need it for example

[Wolfstack]

@Etarm369

Yes, that’s one of the less realistic aspects of the game (I also add that camels shouldn’t be faster than horses.). But AoE is not a simulator or a game that pretends to be realistic but a historically inspired video game. So, in this game it is to be expected that there will be many “historical errors” and “biological errors” that are really balance, aesthetics, political correctness, marketing, etc, decisions.

I think the issue of cavalry and infantry speed is common to the vast majority of war strategy video games in real time. Maybe it would be interesting to create a game where the true difference in speed between humans and horses is ###### ### that is not an option for AoE 3.

Yeah I mean, I know take the king from Aoe 2 for example. Still I think we should comment it, otherwise how devs will know what we think.

@Ekdal1378

Well, AKs are that kind of unit “counter artillery bow” that simulates a culverin.

About faster RoF, the issue is the general ise on DE. Aztec and lakota RR need them to compensate the lack of artillery; swedes didnt need it for example

I can live with the rof, I think all can and I understand the function of the Arrow Knight (we all do I think).

Still I will keep “complaining” about AK, more like ballista knights. Wont accept it cus there are other options far more viable even if some high elo players claim that they are the “best” anti artillery unit.