Multiplayer ranked: absolute chaos and anarchy, ranking system rigged

I’ve noticed strange aspects in multiplayer games in AOE2DE that do frustrate player and team experience. This comes from my experience in 4vs4 plays.

  • My notice for readers *

The thread takes time, but a problem that is not solved overnight requires mature approaches and no childish excuses of the sort “it always happens, we just deal with it”. Every functional thing in society, gaming comunities being also aspects of society, requires rules and enforced rules, otherwise you’ll get chaos anarchy and nothing works.

I understand chaos and anarchy are appreciated by scumbags, bullies and hypocrites in society - and some of these are actually very present in gaming comunity who use gaming to project their poor behaviours towards others - but in normal life, sane people and law-abidding comunities, people with dignity and integrity, like to make their business and daily lives in respectful environments where there is some order. These people like to know that game offenders get punished, so that they know they are not the good law-abidding idiots while the scumbags get away, in this case ruining the game-play for sucessive teams in the gaming comunity.

If I play a game, friends or any normal person, I like to have a few rules because no rules or “everything is allowed” is not a game I respect. Right now, from what I see with just a few weeks of multiplayer in ranked ao2 , there are too few rules and abuse becomes rampant.

There are two ways do deal with these abuses. To make a blind eye and assume to be part of the problem or make a real effort in addressing the solution to this problem. Failing to to so, or resorting to making a blind eye will only add more frustration, and many honest players will simply opt out of the game.

Anyone is free to join, play or leave the game at any time, but the moral stain, the loss of confidence - just like in any business - bears a price to pay for the business. Sure. A business can act arrogant, in denial, immature and say “whatever, just leave the game whe’re better without you”, “keep quiet”, or understands that its reputation will become more and more harmed with increasing negative honest feedback.

I don’t care if there are ao2 honest players who have not witnessed the problems I am about to describe, if there is such thing as honest players who did not see any of the problems I will describe. Which I highly doubt. This comes from my real experience, not from “I have heard, I have been told”. I think if there is a highly negative situation, the cause of the problem needs to be addressed by ao2 comunity or negative feedback will keep pilling up, and lead to irreversible loss of confidence in the franchise.

We all live in a world and those who chose to make a blind eye just live in denial, repeating lies to themselves, their problem. Some make real effort to solve the problems, others just keep making the problem worse.

There might be even be other game platforms addressing the problems I will describe next, but the question is what is ao2 doing to solve this problem. Frankly, if nothing is done, leaving the game will be my choice, because I refuse to promote platforms where poor dishonest behaviour is rewarded and honest performance is bashed down.

If no one talks, nothing comes out. So I’ll talk for those who claim “you’re the first to complain in ages”.

1. Early quitters.

If in a team of 4 at least one player quits too early, the team in 99.99999% of the cases has automatically been sentenced a loss, and all team players suffer a penalty decrease in their rank.

I understand you leave the match when the rest of the team mates are already been wrecked by enemy, or when they are not providing any help or don’t tell you to wait a bit. Impatience is no excuse for quiiters, so if you are beinf under attack and even if the team mates at that moment can’t help you but they are building an army to come to assist, it is your team duty to wait.

Some will claim. Oh, but my team is not building anything or “they just have 5 elephants or 10 knights”. No my quitter. If they started having 5 elephants each 15 seconds, you know in 2 minutes you have 80 (1542). Don’t tell me with 80 elephants after two minutes you couldn’t wait. If you’re told wait 2min before bathroom you die because you can’t take 120 seconds? Quitters and bad players always find excuses for their lack of sportsmanship and poor conduct. This is no different in every gaming community online.

There are situation where you know you’re dealing with abbuse:

  • either because he quits before 20min and everyone is doing ok;

  • he quits unexpectedly and not because of bad wi-fi connections or "critical emmergency reason, or quits too often unexpctedly from gamesm and no reason is provided (accidental disconnect cases not considered);

  • because he suddenly leaves the game when his base is still intact and the rest of team bases are still intact even if with fight;

  • because he complains to the rest of team saying “you have no army, where is your army!!!” and does nothing to try to resist and help the team, while on the countrary bashing and verbally attacking team members, demoralizing the team instead of helping to fight;

  • because even if his base is wrecked by the enemy team (let’s say 3 attack him), while the rest of his teammates’ bases are intact and preparing to counter-attack, if he doesn’t move out of the old base this is a tell-tell sign he’s not willing to put a fight, because he doesn’t understand that sometimes a team member needs to be bantha fodder and “stalk” the other team, while his team builds up a deadly counter-attack.

  • if he’s rushed in feudal age and - just because of the rush, a rush that does not destroy TC or any critical support infrastructure - decides to quit, as an early poor excuse.

2. Smurfs

Ok. Smurfing happens. It’s bad, It’s sad and again it is real. There are veteran skilled players artificially abusing the ranking system loosing too many times on purpose so they can get noobs in their rank bracket, either to steam-roll them and give them a bad time or, and this is also the point, prevent reasonable players to actuallly improving in the rank system in a position reflecting their skills, because the smurfs are there to make sure no one, but a skilled veteran crosses that rank “barrier”.

The point is not just, your rank can’t increase, but your rank will artificially decrease each time you play, every time you face a smurf. Now how do you know you’re facing a smurf? A naïve approach would be “look at their ranks and the number of matches they played”. A more mature approach, would now that such numbers can be rigged:

  • a smurf can create a fresh profile with 0 games played and starts at 1000 rank, just because;

  • having a few games played does not necessarily tells the story of the player, a noob player who plays often can have 100 games played and a veteran who appears here and there may just have 20 games;

  • a same player can have different profiles violating game rules, a higher ranked profile (i.e. +1600) and many lower ranked one (i.e. elo +300, +500 etc…). The first to try to prove he’s good, the other to artificially decrease the ranks of other players and stop them from getting a fairer rank, creating extreme unequal ranking distribution (i.e. player with +500 elo should be +1000 elo, had he not played against smurfs).

  • steam-rolling noobs or lower ranked players under 1 hour, on ranks betwenn 0-+1100 elo; literally, it’s like a race competition where you break the legs of all your opponents at the backstages before the race starts, give yourself mach-5 jets and try to prove yourself you won the race fair and square against “less qualified players”. They were automatically bound to lose, because it only takes one smurf on the enemy team to ruin an entire team of softer players.

  • ego-steam rolling, this one is associated with smurfs too, and can be spot more easily on certain maps like Arena; it is just not enough for them to race steam-roll bases of new or softer player, they also need to own every corner of the previous noob base: i.e. they build all, and I mean all walls exactly in the same location of the noob previous walls just for ego purposes, where they don’t really need extra defenses. It is just a way of humiliating noobs: “look I now even have my walls where your walls stood”. It doesn’t add any fun element to the game play, nor changes the game dynamics, it’s just sad a way of ego-boosting and can act as “approving” bullying behaviours in the game community.

  1. All hell breaks lose: combining 1 and 2

This is even worse, just like when one and one is not two, but greater than two. Combine early quitters and smurfs and you’ll see a “rank hollocaust” for many players who will be doomed to get to +0 ranks, in sucessive diminishing forced downranking, where for each victory they get, they have to get 4-5 defeats in games with 1 and 2. issues. It’s not just on absolute terms, that these players not falling on early quitters/smurfs categories end up in rigged games, the players on ranks aboves actually secure their ranks because the other lower ranked players are forced to play with much lower elos, elos that do not reflect skills or rank.

So this brings two last issues.

  1. Penalty for abusive players.

Simple. Effective. Quick. You quit too early, you deliberately screw your team by quitting without having fought anything, you get 5x as much penalty as other players. Ok, but then this can create another situation. The cheater early quitter who is pushed to lower ranks can still hurt honest players in that new rank bracket. In that case, after 5-10 early quits reported for that player the player should be banned.

There will always be people unhappy about penalty for early quitters in team games, because “a voice from the sky” toll them they already know the rest of their 2-3 teamates will lose. Selfish excuses, because the logic of team play is not individual ego-boosting but team-play cooperation. You don’t play team games to show you’re a better player than the rest of the team, but to actually achieve victory through team cooperation and strategy, irrespective of each individual player, for team > player. This is a problem for people who always think on individual level and don’t understand team dynamics and joint-efforts is greater than sellfish egos.

For smurfs it is not as easy, but if they have very few games played and appear to be noobs but their playstyle is heavy rush, boom and steam-roll in less than 40 minutes, for +0-+1100 elo brackets, they clearly are smurfs. If they deliberately loose most matches, sometimes not even fighting, and steam-roll quickly in one or two games they are ruining on purpose many players, forcing them to have as much as 2x, or 3x lower elos than real.

The smurf cheaters should be reported on forums if they “keep loosing strangely” and easily win where they play for real. A suggestion would be to record games to see if the player keeps consistent behaviour, to the point where 1. and 2. can combine. I.e., if the early-steam-roller in other games is an early quitter in a game, you spot a smurf. If a veteran keeps smurfing after being reported in the comunity (i.e. screenshots, game records with players making report in good faith), his profile should be banned. Especially if the player has multi-profiles, he should be banned (one for veteran plays, other profiles for noobs).

  1. Resign Team-Vote instead of Individual Resign

Undertstandably, there is a point in a game where a team knows it is going to lose and the other is going to win, even with 4vs4. That point does not come early, nor before a fight and certainly not before at least 1-2 team player bases are wrecked. At that time, because the outcome is certain, it makes sense for the losing team to decide if they still want to play the game or resign alltogether.

I would consider the resign threshold in a games 4vs4 if, in the same team, 3 players out of 4 decide to resign. It doesn’t make sense to wait for the whole team members to agree because a team game is about team dynamic, not the last-standing member of the team forcing everyone to stay until the last of his hidden units go away. If other players don’t mind a stalking fight to the last second sure, but the rest of team has no need to stay hostage of the last stubborn player, where the last player refuses to quit when the game was already lost since a lot.

2 players out of 4 voting out means the whole team still believes it can fight, or that soon one more of the two last players still believing the game can be fough, will opt out.

To not spoil the team-competition dynamics, every time a player pushes the “Team Resign Vote” the game should not pause so that team A does not know if a player from team B wants to resign. There should also be a limited number of times to ask for team-resign, i.e. one time each 20minutes for each player and a total of 3 times per player, during the entire game to prevent abuses.

The voting should be quick, instant (7 seconds for max time per player), and not create any disruption on the player’s actions: with hotkeys 1. yes or 2. no. In 4vs.4, if at least 3 quit, it’s game over for that team. Otherwise, the game continues. When the player votes the team should see the player vote for transparency sake. That voting system would work like chat conversations where team members can see the chat (if any of team players have each other blocked/muted, every team player would still be able to see how they vote).

Last but not least, in all team games, the individual resign option needs to go away otherwise, team-resign will remain useless as an early quitter or a deliberate quitter could still force the team to lose by individual resign.

That is it. Thank you for positive, mature feedback.

Just wanted to remind that @Mercy9545 proposed the right way to elaborate team elos.

here

1 Like

I take serious issue with this paragraph.
You divide players into good and bad, but actual research shows that most problems comes from normal people having a bad day (eg this talk) . I seriously would recommend watching some of Jeffrey Lins talks if you’re intrested in fixing player behaviour because they are some of the easiest to access ressource out there and pretty interesting.

This problem - your assumption that a few rotten apples are the problem, and not the playerbase per se - poisens your entire post. See your next part:

“Bad players” is a very funny expression here because we are all bad. I just found myself in a 3v3 match with 5 pro players. I was the absolute noob compared to them. However, if i played with you (given that you only played for a few weeks), you would be a noob compared to me. “Bad player” is just entirely meaningless because - at least with a decent matchmaking - you will play versus equaly bad players. And its not “bad players” who leave early. Its just players who misjudge the situation. Its not a personality trait, its a mistake that happens. Keep in mind aoe2 is a game of incomplete information, so sometimes you think you’re way behind and dont realize there is actually still a chance. Yes, it happens more often to some players than it happens to others, but there is no such thing as a “bad player” who just “doesn’t understand the game”.

So one problem with your post is that you just assume players are evil/bad, when in reality, its just players having a rough day and beeing immature about it. The other problem is that you hardly understand how the ranking system works.

This quote just perfectly shows you dont understand two things about the ranking system. First, the distribution. Most players are just…fairly average. Even if every top 200 players created 5 alternative accounts, there are currently over 60000 ranked accounts for teamgames, so all those smurfs would be only 1.6% of all active acounts. The chance of running into one is just extremly small. But there is a second reason smurfs can’t “block” other accounts from higher ranks: If you want your smurf to be of lower rank, you need to lose games as well. A smurf wont even reach elo 500 without losing maybe 20 games first, meaning he HELPS others reaching higher elo in the process. Manipulating the elo distribution is extremly difficult and can’t be done by just playing a few games on a different account, all you do is sucking points out (deflating elo) or pumping points in (inflating elo) but the ranking (you beeing rank 20k) wont change much.

Despite those two big mistakes, your solution still is pretty simple and good: A team resign vote would certainly help and probably be an all around improvement.

But there sadly is one last problem with your post…

WTF. Someone comparing losing in a video game to the killing of 6 Million people should imho be banned from this forum.

6 Likes

Greetings,

At some points I can agree with you but in others I think there can’t be a solution that does not cause harm to part of the age community.
Okay, let’s go over the points:

1.- Early quitters and Penalty for abusive players

In the world of online games can happen thousand problems from ISP drops, power outages, game crash, toxic players, etc, etc.
In the case of a player who, it is considered, leaves the game quickly or surrender without a fight (easy): A post match vote could be held by members of the harmed team to sanction the player, this sanction is by vote being the sine qua non for the same that the abandonment has occurred within 20/30 minutes in game or less. The penalty would be the inability for the player to join for 1 hour to another game and 1 strike, at 3 strikes his name appears in red inside the lobbies as indicative of his gameplay. if he repeats the same behavior a 4 strike will be added and he will not be able to play again in TG 4v4 again until the next maps rotation. This means that in 4v4 you will not be able to play again but you will be able to play in the others TG, although you only have to repeat the behavior once in the others to be banned.
For me, the votes should be after the game and not during it, that a voting banner appears can be annoying during the game.

2.- Smurfs, All hell breaks loss

The smurfs occur for several reasons but one and very powerful is that they do not find games of their ELO due to the lack and abandonment of the game by the players. Another problem is that the ELO in TG does not correspond to the singular ELO of the player and this results in a disadvantage for the team that does not have a high ELO member. The high ELO players in singles should not be able to play low ELO TG for points or maybe play them but not receive points. In this context the solution is not so simple.

3.- Pausing Players

As soon as the game starts or at a certain time a player pauses and takes several minutes to return. Sometimes the pause is justified: the player receives a phone call or has to go to the bathroom, etc. but other times are done maliciously.
This is an online game, and pauses must be set to in-game, for example:
You have 3 breaks per game and when you make one you can choose between different options such as a phone call and thus the pause has a limit of 2 minutes in which it will be automatically removed at the end of the countdown. that is to say, that each pause will have its time that will be different depending on the case. A pause that cannot exist is because the keyboard is not configured with my keys, you have to check that before playing.
We also have the reverse case, we need to pause for some reason and the counterpart removes it and takes advantage of the time we are away from the keyboard. I think that in this case the possibility of removing the opponent’s pause should be removed

You say “That is it. Thank you for positive, mature feedback. Preferably, not by kids or teenagers who study aoe2 instead of their school subjects in non-leisure time”. I do not agree with this, I think that any opinion is welcome as long as it is given with respect.

Thank you and have a good day/night

Ladies and Gents. Big news. Someone said something along these lines: I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

I suggest the respective forum participant to reflect on the previous line. Then, instead of throwing lies, cancel-culture, hipocrisy and vitriol agenda against players who decide to speak out the truth about the current rigged system flaws in ao2 multiplayer, maybe he could understand the context of what is said. Assuming such participant is in good faith, wich considering the out of context is not possible.

For zealots like such participant who need to take words out of context, using of cancel-culture and politically correct tools to trap and frame people and try to bully them the way they express themselves and their free speech, shows who they really are: miserable subjects.

To avoid any misinterpreration, pitfalls or intentionally made-up traps by cynics, it is good to clarify one or two things.

I do not deny Hollocaust. Hollocaust was bad, and it was real. What is crime is denying Hollocaust, the rest anyone is free to use the expression in a manner his views/conscience deem so. There actually is something worse than Hollocaust, trying to use the “hollocaust word card” as a cheap lame excuse for poltiically correct forum purges, as if it was as insult. What’s the next word to forbid in the name of politically correct cancel culture fanatism? Hipocrisy? “HE SAID HOLLOCAUST. OMG HE INSULTED ME. HE MUST BE BANNED”. Stupidity, hipocrisy and imbecile at its finest.

If there is a thread of dog shit, why would someone need to talk about the perfume of the dog’s owner? Everyone knows why. To manipulate others, avoid talking subjects, silence people, promote hatred and cancel-culture.

How about showing MY THIRD FINGER to such cancel-culture fanatics?

I stick to first post, and regretfully am sorry for those who need to talk about the missing onion ring in their hamburger.

1 Like

Many people get offended by seeing facts, everytime and everyday. Anyway, I do not want to stop constructive feedback if anyone has ideas. Just do it in leisure time, cause this is not a 2min reading.

I would just gladfully remind you that the current state of free speach is a result of the “cancel-culture” of the past.

You are free to raise your voice, but stubbornness won’t lead you to a result of egilateral agreement.

2 Likes

Your post is way too long, can you provide a TLDR at least?

I just (managed) to read the smurf session, one key issue - I think there is the report button already, but isn’t the lack of personnel (or incentive from Microsoft) the real issue to stop smurfing?

1 Like

Hello,

I have read the entire post and I have offered the solutions that have occurred to me.

As for the holocaust, unlike the colleague above, I have understood you perfectly.

A solution that would reduce the smurf accounts is to set the IP to a Steam/Microsoft account, if you want to have a smurf account buy the game again.

This is the last thing I will say on the subject and I hope it will be useful to the age of empires II community.

Thank you for reading

1 Like

I think your ‘Notice for readers’ is unnecessary.

I agree with some of your points, though.

I think that there should be an option to report a player for ‘Smurfing’. Smurfing is obviously bad for the game and it would be good if moderators took action against them. The practical problem of having this report option, though, is that there will be a lot of false smurf accusations in these reports, and the moderators would need a lot of time to investigate all of them. The moderators would need an intelligent system where smurf reports have more weight the fewer the percentage of games is the reporter accuses someone of smurfing, and then they need to investigate the players who have the highest ratio between (weighted) received smurf reports and games played. If done this way, I think one could crack down on smurfs with only a little extra workload for the staff of Age of Empires II DE. I am not optimistic that they will do it, though, because it will still mean extra effort for them.

I agree early quitters are annoying and I like the idea of a resign team vote. For starters, if resigning were a team vote, then this helps reinforce the idea that resigning should be a choice made by a team and not by an individual. However, I don’t think taking away the individual resign option away would be great. People could always Alt + F4 or destroy all of their units and buildings anyway. And then you have the possibility of a 2v2 where your teammate just wants to hide their last Villagers in a corner and not only keep the opposing team hostage, but you as well. (I can imagine the messages… ‘You do not deserve to go play the next game because you are a noob and you didn’t help me!!!’) Maybe you could put a system in place where if you often quit teamgames through any means other than the team resign option, you get a timeout for ranked play, just like you get now when you Alt + F4 after a match is found.

3 Likes

Thats a horrible idea.

Right now, he can play them but soon, he will be higher ranked and play versus other strong players. But with this propsal, he will stay in low elo, stomping forever. Not fun for him, not fun for others.

How is this an issue?
Either you want to play versus him, then you wait a bit - as you said, there are good reasons for pausing.
Or you unpause and take your win. A pause is not something that can be done unilateral, but something both sides have to agree on.

2 Likes

Yes, and i agree with Eve Hall there. However, not only women say smart things - Karl Popper talked about the paradox of tolerance: If we are tolerant towards intolerance, intolerance will take over and therefor true tolerance need to be intolerant versus intolerance.
This is the reason why many european states ban holocaust denial. Because any step towards accepting the anihilation of a population is intolerance. And saying “smurfs/quitters in a videogame is similar to the holocaust” is a step towards accepting antisemitism: If its comparable to angry little gamers beeing upset, it cant be that bad, right? Thats why many european states ALSO ban holocaust relativation. Yes, you read that right: What you wrote is a punishable offense in several european states (although a mild edge case).

Now, two more things.

You talk about context 3 times in your short text. However, two things i dont get: If “context” is that important, why do you not explain your context? And second, what context would be needed to make a comparison to large scale industrial killing of human beeings valid?

And then there is this funny paragraph at the end of your text:

This is really funny, because i wrote a pretty long text about why your assumptions are wrong, linked you a talk of a scientist who works on online player behaviour and even told you how to find more. I then used this guys findings to show how your text has serious flaws, and aknowledged that one of the solutions you propose is actually good.
Then, at the very end, i stated that holocaust relativation should not be tolerated.

You then wrote a 1945 character long (funny coincidence, isnt it?) reply, of which 1945 characters talked about how its okay to relativate the holocaust (as long as you dont deny it), talked about stupid buzz words who are used to silence people (funny how “holocaust word card” makes little sense, but “holocaust word card”-word card pretty much summs up your post…), and you have a big fat 0 characters left to actually say something on topic. Now, that per se is fine. Its fine to respond only to parts of someones post. But it really is hillarious how you just ignore 95% of my post, and then claim i had ignored 95% of yours - which i didn’t, i did adress it! You just got so hung up on defending your holocaust relativation you didnt realize.

1 Like

And I think that maybe OP should remove the holocaust thing, everyone else can leave the horror of human history out of this thread due to the off topic nature of such arguments, and we can return the actual point. @anon63664082

Too long, didn’t read. Author needs to learn how to write in a succinct way, instead of this unnecessarily long prose and verbal diarrhoea.

The solution to TG is team mates shouldn’t lose ELO if one player quits before 10 minutes. Then after the game you manually ban the player who quit so that you don’t match with them again. No need for 5 minute time outs. They just increase frustration and more frustration causes more toxic behaviour.

Play 1v1 if you want fairer games. Nobody really cares about team game ELO since it’s not an accurate representation of your actual skill level.

3 Likes

Wouldn’t be it a solution if the community takes it “in hand”?
We now have the handicap system. We could make a website where we track players results with different handicaps. The very best TG players of the world get 100 % handicap - whenever a player gets a winrate too far away form 50 % he will be put up or down in his handicap in the custom lobby.
So instead of an ELO every player just gets his handicap.

(Could be implemented by the game itself btw also, all players begin with a 200 % handicap and get down i f they win and up when they lose. The more games they made the less change per game will be applied. Without a TG elo there is no incentive to grind it and we wouldn’t have booster smurfs.

It’s an interesting idea, but it will create a potential unhealthy reliance on the benefits of a handicap. Also, how would you feel knowing that you beat the opponent, but you had like an extra 20% handicap and they still almost won?

If I play with my friends I give them handicap now, it’s really nice to actually have “evenly strong” members in a team game. I am not forced to “carry” anymore and they are a worthy part of the team now.
Ofc playing with friends is different than with people you basically don’t know, but for me it’s actually really great experience.
And I also think it’s a great incentive to become better and lower your handicap.

Hey all—closing this thread. Please keep discussions on topic and civil.