If you lose vs a ERK spamming the problem is not from azzys. The civ has been destroyed by skirms for years and for no reason ERKs are now overpowered and are unstoppable when there hasnt been any buff to them but nerfs and nerfs
Im agree that skirms have to kill them but no reason for inf negative bonus
not all dragon-type units should have the same counters. for example the lakota Rifle Rider defeats heavy infantry, so why couldn’t the ERK outperform the dragoons against the musketeers?
Rifle Rider
Because rifle riders have a heavy cav tag that gets them rolled by actual light cav. Infact they’re a weird niche that get to counter heavy inf/cav but also get countered by light inf/cav.
Light cav does not beat heavy inf (bar kiting). ERK has no business beating heavy inf - and it currently still does.
the rifle rider has the heavy infantry tag, while the ERK has the ranged shock infantry tag which is a tag almost exclusive to the ERK. It is compared to the dragon, but it was never stated that it was intended to be a unit perfectly symmetrical to the dragon. Both units, Rifle Rider and ERK, are weird and have peculiar mechanics.
other weird units are: the carolean, cruzoob infantry, hand mortar, hakkapelit, flaming arrow, etc. I suspect that if there are more expansions the presence of these weird units will increase
and if you are not a faction with skirmishers?
back in TAD aztec was impossible for factions like british to deal with in the super lategame/treaty.
ERKs have been OP since at least TAD, they where always this stupid unit that practically killed anything it sees.
RR are entirely different from any other dragoon, and are themselves countered by dragoons.
yes units exist that can counter their counter, another example would be carolean which can quiet easily just melee art to death if they get an opening.
RRs paid for being able to counter musketeers by dying super easy to dragoons, ERKs pay nothing for just being super strong, the only true back-draw they have is being relatively slow. their DPS is very high, their HP and resist are both good and they only cost 1 pop.
Less HP, speed and more fragil to AoE attacks than dragoons, plus no bonus vs art plus limited training buildings and 15 villagers at plaza without arsenal upgrades.
About 1 pop cost, aztecs need numbers to solve lack of artillery or any other AoE unit.
They have 4/7 melee units on their roster, easily countered by muskets and skirms while AK cant fight vs muskets neither because 2pop cost and low speed.
Edit: Musketeers counter heavy/light cav and Heavy infantry plus having a decent siege, maybe we have to nerf their bonus too.
The most OP ERK was the one from the first version of the WC. In that version, if I remember correctly, the skirmishers had no bonus against the ERK. In TAD the skimishers already had the X2 bonus against ERK.
ERK are entirely different from any other dragoon too, and the aztec army has many shortcomings.
In the next patch the ERK will receive significant changes. One developer already said that they would be monitoring the performance of the ERK and that other Aztec units could also present adjustments later.
In my opinion, the issue of the ERK has already been dealt with enough. Now we have to wait and see what changes are implemented and how the Aztecs work with said changes in supremacy and treaty. Due to the peculiarities of the Aztec civilization I am almost sure that there will be dissatisfied people after the patch. so, here we will be discussing if the ERK is still OP or if they exaggerated by weakening it.
they cost 1 pop and are cheaper.
we already been over how meaningless this was earlier. they do 30 dmg for 1 pop vs dragoons doing 22 for 2 pop, they do nearly 3 times the dmg a pop, more than outmatching the lag of a x2 vs artillery.
also you are aztec, you have other tools vs art from the same building no less, they are even cheaper.
somehow has never been an issue
thats a civ thing not a unit thing, and the arsenal means very little, like buhu you lose 2 range but you have significant more damage.
doesnt jaguar knights counter musketeers? or at least have a bonus vs melee inf
also again, this is a faction issue not a unit issue. dont just protect ERK because you dont want to change other things on the faction.
musketeers are countered by skirmishers and artillery, some of the most common units in the game and are soft countered by archers and grenadiers.
musketeers arent really a huge problem in the game in terms of balance.
if the problem is the faction then fix the faction rather than excusing the existence of an OP unit.
Well, ERK was considered too strong because people usually see them with support of War Ceremony and they think ERK deals too much damage.
But lets compare their base attack to other Dragoon type units which fires every 1,5s too:
ERK: 15 before the nerf
Veteran Cavalry Archer: 15 (costs 7% more than ERK, deals the same damage) and it is usually considered as a bad unit
Elite Bow Rider: 25 (costs 15% more than ERK, deals 67% more damage)
Saying ERK does 30 dmg compared to 22 of a Dragoon is just a huge and untrue simplification.
If devs decided to hard nerf ERK, that’s ok. It was a very strong unit if used with Ceremonies. But without corresponding buffs this civ will be now helpless against one of the simplest unit combination which is Musk + Falc. ERK + AK will not be able to fight it effectively any more.
Thats valid for ERKs too. Im not against their nerf, Im against the nerf vs HI.
I can say the same, doesnt skirmishers and pikes counter ERKs; both trained at barracks?? Thats a civ issue…
Jaguars were already nerfed, and AK keep on disadvantage on sieging while mortars are useless
I protect them because aztecs have to send 4 cards to boost them while they sacrifice economy with 15v at plaza too. Of course the units have to be good, spamming ERKs vs skirms drains aztec eco and is a game lost.
Devs have been touching aztec units patch after patch and when they were nearly balanced (before Africans) then they went out of control.
the rifle rider has the heavy infantry tag
Ya might wanna look up rifle riders again.
other weird units
Why is this even here. All these units have very exact class tags - they beat what they’re made beat and lose to their counters. Unless you intend to show me flaming arrows beating hussars. This has no bearing on why ERK should beat one of the intended counters (musks) of their class (light cav analogue).
No unit is a outstanding as the ERK. ‘Werid’ doenst mean exceeding the limits of its class. The point of comparison for shock inf as heavy cav and the comparison of ranged shock inf is light cav. A good meterstick of how good ERK’s should really be is something like the ruyter of javelin riders - 1 pop light cav each of them - see how they do vs hard counters (LI) and soft counters (heavy ranged inf) and thats where the ERK ought to be.
Unless you’re calling for what happened to hakka to happen ERK’s now
If you really want to use musk to beat ERK instead of light inf, you could try using some goons to get the ERK snared and stuck in melee and then move into them with your musk or whatever, something you wouldn’t be able to do against light cav. ERK only deal 9 damage in melee and the muskets will shred them to pieces.
Aztec doesn’t have economy like most euro civs so they need stronger units. If this unit is really making aztec too strong, why wouldn’t they be more dominant? According to sunbros data they have the 3rd lowest pick rate of any civ, and below 50% win rate. When you factor all the people who lose to aztec because they are unfamiliar with the civ (I know I often did), imagine what they will be like after getting a significant double nerf.
JPC, one of the most notable aztec players on the ladder said he thinks they will be the weakest civ in the game after the patch
They are meant to count as a dragoon, but being infantry they get killed by cannons too, because cannons got multiplier for infantry.
ERK are meant to be strong to compensate the lack of artillery, wich is a HUGE disadvantage.
Any Euro civ with musk can easily make cannons and counter infantry masses, but Aztecs can’t !!!
Cannons don’t have any positive mulitpliers vs shock infantry
Exactly, Aztecs are terrible even with their only decent unit ERK. Aztec picks and win rate is terrible, by removing the unit maintaining all afloat, basically the civ is getting buried.
ERK count as infantry.
Cannons only have negative multiplier vs Arrow Knights and Huaraca [Infantry]
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Neither light nor heavy cavalry are supposed to counter heavy infantry. however, RR counters heavy infantry.
AK is an infantry unit that counters artillery, should it be nerfed as well?
I understand that the Aztec army is being asked to be more varied and not always ERK (the Swiss will almost always create an army based on Caroleans). But I don’t understand why they complain that the ERK is too strong when the Aztec win rate is almost 50%. When they complain that the ERK is OP,
Are you considering the following? that the Aztecs don’t have: cannons, grenadiers, mercenaries, units that do siege damage to other units, units that do ranged area damage, a musketeer equivalent, two or more LI counters. Individually the ERK is strong, but when considering the Aztec army as a whole it is far from an unfair advantage.
there were so many complaints with the weakening of the ERK because In the topic they mentioned that the ERK would cause much less damage to all the infantry. but they didn’t mention that the skirmishers would also deal much less damage to the ERKs. they also did not mention any positive changes for any other Aztec units.
In my opinion, there are other armies with more advantages (like the Japanese). But the problem is the Aztec army, I don’t understand it.
ERK count as shock infantry which is a completely different thing from infantry . For example, Falconets do x0.5 vs cavalry and shock infantry.