A trend I’m seeing is that buffing dance halls is problematic because of african outlaw pop cost, so could you just reduce the base pop cost of western/asian outlaws?
Very interesting!
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Sorry, I looked back and I totally misread what you were saying lol.
This is kinda a difficult “fix” to make tbh. Since Asian civs age up with Wonders, you can’t exactly tie it to any wonder in particular. A card wouldn’t exactly work either. Aside from being kinda redundant with Germany and Sweden, age 5 cards aren’t really a thing so it can’t give a bonus equivalent to the Mercenary Contractor.
The best solution would probably be a tech of some kind. Conceivably, it could be a simple shadowtech when you reach age 5, like the Mercenary Contractor effect gets switched on. But would that be too good? That’s basically an additional age up bonus for free. An alternative might be to create a tech that has the same effect as Mercenary Contractor, but place it in the Monastery for the player to research in age 5. You’d have to price it appropriately ofc, but off the top of my head something like 2k coin for 35% mercenary hp and attack seems pretty fair. The cost is all in coin, which is what you’ll spend making mercs, and even though it affects a large variety of units the effect is less than other imperial upgrades so the total cost should be less. Also, if the Mercenary Contractor were changed so it buffs Outlaws as well as Mercs, this Asian equivalent tech or shadowtech should do likewise.
Now, I think there’s a pov that Asian civs shouldn’t get Imp Mercs. Yeah, it might be unfair Euro and African civs get better Mercs long term, but Asian civs were designed with that in mind and have many other strengths. But I suppose the counter argument to this is Euro civs didn’t always have Imp Mercs either and the Mercenary Contractor was added with DE.
Well, Dance Halls/Atonement/Theaters has a floor of 1 pop, so the only potentially game breaking Outlaw would be the Desert Raider. They start with 3 pop, and Dance Halls would take that to 1, which would basically make them a super Cossack. But they’re currently only trainable by Hausa and Ethiopia, so it’s a moot point for now.
While you could tinker with base stats, changing the pop space of outlaws is the quickest and easiest way to buff them. Makes them easier to train, easier to mass, and indirectly cheaper since you need to build fewer houses. Reducing pop not only improves Outlaws without Dance Halls, but actually makes Dance Halls more impactful as well, so it’s a win-win.
But reducing a unit’s pop is really a case by case basis. Some unit’s pop are definitely too high, like the Pirate. Other’s don’t need to be reduced, like the Wokou Ronin or Monk. And for some it’s probably debatable, like the Thugee.
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I wanna start by saying that I really appreciate the way you carry yourself through these issues. Thank you for explaining your thought process and laying down your arguments, it’s a rare sight in this forum and we need more of that.
On Imperial Mercs
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I agree, the buff shouldn’t be linked to a wonder. I think that paying for the upgrade around what you proposed is a good idea.
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Regarding the upgrade itself, I think it should be equivalent to the upgrade Euros get with the age up. If 35% is it, then 35% is good. However, because Euros have it locked under a politician, they are giving up other Age up options, so I would make it a bit more difficult to get by locking the upgrade behind Atonement = card (this is particularly impactful for prolonged games since you give up a card slot for this).
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I honestly think that giving Euros Imperial mercs and not Asians was an oversight (or the easiest to implement). Asian civs also work through creating mercs in one building, having access to mercenary shipments in Age III and IV mainly and have access to the mercenary loyalty card. Notice that this diverges from Native civs that only have ‘‘Renegate’’ and ‘‘allies’’ shipments (Lakota also has outlaws).
Despite standing on mutual ground, only European civs got a Mercenary buff with DE: Access to infinite mercs shipments in Age IV, access to Imperial mercs.
So if you wanna keep using mercs realiably in Age V with Asian civs you are screwed. Moreover, for the most part, Asian civs do not have upgrade cards that affect indirectly mercenaries (eg. infantry hitpoints, cav attack, etc). The only exceptions to this that I can think of is hand attack and TEAM Shivaji’s Tactics for India, Western Reform (that you can only access in age 2). These buffs are very little by the way, and particularly hurtful for India and China that don’t have access to an Arsenal. One practical example is that with neither of them you get counter infantry rifling equivalent when you send the HC card. Seems like an unwarranted disadvantage.
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This is actually an interesting suggestion that I hadn’t considered. In a strange way, it almost makes this Saloon card into a pseudo-church card. A twisted part of me wants to go all the way with that idea and have it also give a unique upgrade and unit shipment to each civ (mercs or otherwise tbd… or maybe outlaws ooo). But that would be way too much value for one card, probably too far.
Locking Imp Mercs to a card is definitely a way to give the option an opportunity cost, although it’s a different category of cost than an age up. I can already picture the bellyache some players will share if an option Euro civs get “for free” is locked behind a card and a price tag for Asian civs. Of course, by giving up 2k coin for the upgrade, Euro players will have already paid for Imp Mercs but most probably don’t think about that. That’s funny enough that this may be the way to go. I would be ok if Imp Mercs didn’t need a card prerequisite tho.
Anyway, I have also appreciate the cordial discussion and I feel like we’ve hashed out some interesting ideas, however I fear we’ve strayed far off topic haha.
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I like your thinking, thanks for your responses.
Now going back to topic. I think that Asian and Western outlaws pop should be reduced to be viable to the following:
- Dacoit-Pistolero (AKA musk type): 3 pop default, 1 with Dance Hall/Atonement.
- Wokou Horseman-Comanchero: 4 pop, 2 with Dance Hall/Atonement.
- Wokou Pirate-Pirate: 3 pop, 1 with Dance Hall/Atonement.
- Renegado - Thugee: Less than right now but I don’t know by how much.
Reasoning: You are still paying upfront with extra population compared to their regular counterparts, then by the time Dance Hall/Atonement pays off more than 700w worth of pop, you are limited to spawning them only from one building for the rest of the game.
Results:
- Outlaws are more viable, you are still paying a hidden wood cost because of their twice or more than twice extra population compared to counterparts
- Outlaws do not become obsolete and can be used in the late game, with a smaller ratio than your main army that can be created from multiple buildings at times, in contrast to outlaws that only supplement.
- It activates underused cards like Holy Refuge, Dance Hall and Atonement. This could even nourish the meta with new viable openings.
PS: I agree that the slow animation effect has to be addressed too. There is also a bug that prevents musk type outlaws from snaring like their counterparts, I don’t know if it extends to other outlaws as well.
These pop reductions would make the units objectively better, but they might be a bit much in my opinion. Not that these would make them superior than normal units necessarily, it’s more they’d feel a bit off. The high pop space of Outlaws has always been a cornerstone of their design and balance, and if you make it too low you remove a large part of their identity.
Maybe I’m too hesitant on this one, since all the above would still pretty much be true at the pop you listed. And it’s undeniable some units needed the reduction in previous patches (Renegados used to be 6 pop and Comancheros 7) and some need it now, specifically the Pirate. It’s also true the Wokou Ronin and Monk have bucked this trend and they still have flown under the radar since TAD, so bringing other outlaws in line with them might not be too bad. African Outlaws break the mold entirely so idk if you can really compare them to older ones.
Also, going by the standards you laid out I think Renegados should be 3 pop and Thugees 4, since they have better stats. But Renegados have 4 pop currently, which is fine as Outlaws now stand, while Thugees could be comfortable reduced to 5 pop imo.
I didn’t know that, that’s interesting. I wonder if that’s because instead of hitting enemies with their guns, the melee animation is just firing their guns. Maybe somewhere it just got turn off accidentally, like during copy/pasting the animation or something. I can’t imagine that was done intentionally as a balancing mechanism. I can see a slow firing animation as intentional, but why would a musk or skirm being able to snare op? Seems like a no brainer bug fix to me.
Even if the rifle outlaws can snare, if you wanted to change their melee animation it would be a simple fix: just borrow the melee animation from other skirm or musk where they swing their rifle around. The Dacoit and Pistolero would be trickier. You’d have to give them a sword or a knife or something as a melee weapon, since a) there isn’t a good pistol melee animation in the game already to borrow while there are sword/knife attacks you could use, but more importantly b) pistol whipping enemies as an animation probably wouldn’t be clear enough to see clearly in game since the camera is so far back and the pistol model is so small.
Right, this is not completely new either. You point out some units that currently have this feature and also, there was like one patch that had western outlaws with this pop. Unfortunately because people were abusing USA outlaws particularly in treaty (that are objectively stronger, have an ability, can be spammed from 3 buildings), they nerfed all western outlaws again and have remained untouched since.
I believe that even if we decide to keep their current pop, Dance Hall/Atonement should be able to give you the values calculated above. In this way you are paying for access to special units with equivalent population to their counterparts and will probably still produce them in the mid-late game.
Let me think. If Dance Halls reduced Outlaw pop by 3 instead of 2, based on current pop you’d get:
Pistolero: 1 pop
Renegado: 1 pop
Comanchero: 2 pop
Pirate: 3 pop
Dacoit: 2 pop
Thugee: 3 pop
Horseman: 2 pop
Wokou Pirate: 1 pop
Monk: 1 pop
Ronin: 1 pop
Desert Warrior: 1 pop
Desert Archer: 1 pop
None of those immediately jump out as being especially broken at a glance, although with testing who knows. Then again, this would mean you’ve got 2 pop Cowboys running around (in age 4 but still).
Taking it as given Outlaw pop should be reduced for argument’s sake, the difference between taking pop off the base unit or increasing the discount is something like: making it easier to mix in outlaws in any game with any strat while still increasing the value of Dance Halls (a number of units would hit the break point of 3 pop > 1 pop); vs increase the comparative strength of all-in or heavy merc strats and therefore discourage or have no effect on mixing in a few outlaws.
I guess between the two options I’d rather lower the base pop than buff Dance Halls etc, but I’m still not sold on a blanket pop reduction for outlaws, I still think it should be more targeted and unit specific. But maybe other people disagree idk.
Well if it isn’t consistent then it’s a bit annoying to plan strategies around. it’d need a giant list of which it reduces by what. I guess the giant lists aren’t unheard of but I’d rather it be avoided if possible
Dance Halls and the like reduces all Outlaw’s pop by 2. The only exceptions are Desert Warriors and Archers, because they start at 2 pop and drop to 1 pop.
If it were to be changed/buffed it should be consistently -3 pop as well. Not that I think it should be chaged.
Right I would go for consistency as well, based on their “regular unit” equivalent.
So this in my mind, would also be 1 pop with Dance Halls.
Not unheard of from other civs, Ports for eg love doing this. The difference is 1) If you lose an engagement with Comancheros in mid-late game you are gonna have way more of a hard time remassing than Ports (or other Euro civs) 2) Not really cowboys since they don’t have the charge ability like USA. Just to avoid misunderstandings on this I don’t think USA and Mexico’s outlaws pop should be touched.
Yeah I also think that improving their availability across the board is best, and then when you send Dance Hall you know that you basically get the pop equivalent of the regular type of unit and that’s the value of the card regarding outlaws. Simple and straight forward design as well.
Alright, I’ve gone back to the game and after thinking about it some more I have some more thoughts.
idk if I’ve said it clearly but I’m kinda 50/50 on this idea. While I would find new outlaws interesting, especially to flesh out African maps which atm are all Desert Warriors and Archers, if they aren’t roughly as good as the other African Outlaws then we’re kinda back to square 1 when it comes to their usability. After all, while it’s still uncommon, you do sometimes see players making Desert Outlaws, which makes them easily the most popular of “normal” outlaws. Plus, an outlaw Vagabond seems like people would find it boring (“just a spearman?”), although I wouldn’t want it to have some kind of dumb gimmick so maybe the former is better.
BUT the main thing I wanted to point out is in addition to the Shogo Thrower, there’s a similar guardian called the Reckless Knife Thrower with a different look. So my question is: assuming there’d be a Knife-style Outlaw introduced, which design would be better? Or maybe it’d be like the pirate, where both outfits are possible? Not sure if that’d affect the animation at all tho, since the Shogo has a shield while the reckless thrower has 2 knives. But I’m pretty sure they already use the same animation anyway so…
It turns out Otto can already do this! …if you revolt to Barbary Pirates that is. As Barbary you can train Barbary Warriors (an outlaw version of the Barbary Corsair for 100f and 1 pop) as well as the Corsair Marksman at the Barracks. Except this is the original version of the Marksmen, with extra speed, damage, hp, range resist, and bonus damage vs vils.
So while I still think a card with a similar effect to the Hausa’s Morocco age up (or similar to the card I outlined above) could still work, I think it’s funny the devs were one step ahead of you on this one.
Shongo Throwers would work better as a native warrior or mercenary rather than an outlaw. A Zande minor faction with a military unit of a Mabele Thrower would be a great addition.
One of the descriptions says they stored several knives behind their shields so they should have that. The shield could justify a high amount of melee or ranged resistance. A heavy infantry unit with some ranged resist and melee damage from range could be an interesting combo.
They’d be a great fit for Congo, Sudd, Darfur, and Lake Chad. And they could reasonably be stretched to Great Rift and Lake Victoria.
I’m working on a suggestion for better African outlaws and had a similar idea for a European style African outlaw. This is what I came up with:
Safari Tracker
An outlaw unit based on Victorian era big-game hunters.
European expeditions often had little regard for locals and operated outside the law making them akin to outlaws. Safari Trackers would be armed with an elephant gun and have a powerful, long range charged attack and a multiplier versus pets and treasure guardians to represent this. They should wear a pith helmet like pictured here:
Safari Trackers would make far more sense on Sub-Saharan African maps like Congo where “Desert” outlaws are very much out of place. It could also be present on many of the maps based in India too.
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The other most promising candidate for an outlaw available in west and central Africa is the Leopard Society warriors:
Leopard Prowler
Pretty much an African outlaw version of the Jaguar Prowler Knight.
The Human Leopard Society was a secret society that ranged from Sierra Leone to Tanzania. They would dress as leopards and attack their victims with weapons shaped like leopard claws to make it appear as if the killing was done by a leopard. Their attacks happened in secluded jungles or under the cover of darkness, so stealth is a defining feature just like the JPK.
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I wouldn’t exactly say no to another African minor native, but I’m personally ok with a new Knife Throwing unit (perhaps reusing the assets of the Shogo Thrower or Reckless Knife Thrower) being an outlaw. Don’t forget, the Sudanese Dervish is also a knife thrower of sorts, just anti-infantry rather than anti-cav. Making it an outlaw would make it easier to differentiate the two. Plus, as you pointed out, there’s less variety in African Outlaws than African Natives.
The Safari Tracker (or maybe Safari [Game] Hunter?) is probably a better idea for a European outlaw in Africa than rouge colonial officers. Still, it’s a bit anachronistic for my tastes, even though I fully acknowledge I’ve probably already lost that battle with the devs. I’m also a bit skeptical just because I’m not sure how you’d differentiate it from the Renegado or Thugee in terms of stats and design (a multiplier vs pets and treasure guardians is a start, but otherwise is it just a standard Outlaw Skirmisher?). And more importantly, will players feel like they’ve lost something when there they once made Desert Archers instead? I know your intent is to put them on different maps, but as Sub-Saharan maps stand Desert Archers are available now. They’d need to be kept inline with DA somewhat, or at least have pros and cons. What’s the advantage of this unit? Better kiting? Better hope the devs don’t yoke them with the Renegado’s firing animation. Not saying you’re the one who has to answer all the specifics, I’m just trying to think this thru. I can see it working conceptually, I just disagree with adding them on a subjective level.
Now, the Leopard Man is a new bit of history I was totally unaware of, very interesting to learn about. I also really like the idea of adding them as an Outlaw. In flavor, it makes sense for them to be outlaws since they’re a secret society over a large geographic range and (presumably) from many peoples, so it wouldn’t make sense for them to be natives. They seem like exactly the kind of highwaymen that inspired other Outlaws in the game. Mechanically, stealth is a gimmick not on any outlaws so that would instantly set them apart. Africa currently has no melee infantry outlaws (or natives come to think of it) and that would help set them apart. Plus, even though they’d need a new model, it’d be easy enough to re-use the claw attack animation from the Rajput and Tiger Claw, since these guys also used a claw-like weapon. I think the only thing I’m undecided on is if it makes more sense for them to be an anti-cav infantry or a shock infantry unit, it could go either way. Like I said tho this is a great idea for an outlaw and I would love to see it added.
Mabele knife throwing has an association with the Zande and specific cultures are generally represented by natives or mercenaries rather than outlaws. The geographical overlap with the Sudanese who have a similar unit does make their inclusion as a native unlikely (unless Sudanese were elevated to a full civ). That leaves mercenary unit as the best avenue for their inclusion, which I think they would also be a good fit for.
On that topic, I hope we also get Zappo Zaps and Boer Commandos as mercenaries for central and southern Africa.
I agree they are a bit advanced for an age 2 (where outlaws should be), but most of the western outlaws also have an 1800s theme and weapons so it’s not a deal breaker. The way I’d set them apart from Renegados and Thugees would be a charged attack (like American and Mexican outlaws) and the anti-animal multiplier. I was thinking something like a Cree Tracker with their Eagle Eye ability (From a USA card). Instead of a Cree Tracker with Eagle Eye, it would be a Safari Tracker with a functionally equivalent Elephant Gun. The charged ability could be locked until age 3 or 4 so that people don’t have access to an elephant gun in age 2. It could mainly fight with a pistol (like the Colonial Officer guardian) and have the big hunting rifle on its back that would be used for the long ranged charged attacks. It would be a little more generic prior to getting a charged attack, but its multipliers would still make it very useful for taking treasures.
Shock infantry don’t really make sense, they didn’t chase down victims, they ambushed them. I think a role very similar to Jaguar Prowl Knights as stealthy anti-heavy infantry and anti-cavalry unit thematically makes lots of sense. It would also be kind of a meme:
Parallels between a Jaguar Prowler and a Leopard Prowler would also line up with a Safari Tracker being an African outlaw version of a Cree Tracker.
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Someone needs to make a whole new post or something about the leopard men. I’d adore seeing that in the game.
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I’m working on one with a few different suggestions for African outlaw additions and adjustments.
The info on the Leopard Society is pretty hard to come by but this is what I’ve found so far.
I found out about their existence from a mention (at ~31:30) in this video:
This video seems to be the most comprehensive summary of the group:
Some other sources that I’ve found on them:
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/54086/54086-h/54086-h.htm
http://www.scielo.org.za/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0041-476X2009000100006
There’s also another secret society in the region called the Ekpe who I think would be a good fit for a treasure guardian. They wore elaborate masks to hide their identities and often performed policing and guard duties.
I’m thinking almost an outlaw equivalent to the spy except with a bonus when attacking villagers since they mostly attacked civilians. Making the unit model wouldn’t be too hard either. Just take the tiger claw and put him in a leopard costume. A shock infantry spy and raiding outlaw is a little unconventional but I like it. I see no reason every outlaw has to be a pirate or an equivalent to one of the three cowboys. Hausa should get them somehow from shipments since they get the desert outlaws by default.
Stealthy shock infantry with a bonus versus villagers sounds unbelievably annoying to deal with. Shock infantry also doesn’t fit with the history either. They never chased down victims, they used stealth and ambushed them.
Copying the role of a JPK as a heavy infantry unit that also counters heavy infantry is a great fit functionally and historically. It would let them be a replacement for Desert Archers on jungle maps since they counter the same things. It would also make them more intuitive if their role was the same as the very similar looking JPK. Their stats would need to be toned down to be appropriate for an age 2 unit but other than that I think they should be comparable to a JPK.