My proposal on Knight and infantry change for upcoming "a massive number of balance change"

  • Palisade wall and gate MA increased 2 → 2/2/3/3 in Dark/Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age.
  • “Arson” technology is removed.
  • LS attack bonus vs “Standard Building” increased 3 → 4.
  • LS gets +2 attack bonus vs “Walls and gates”.
  • THS upgrade cost increased 300f/100g → 350f/150g and time reduced 75 sec → 60 sec.
  • THS HP increased 60 → 65.
  • THS attack reduced 12 → 11.
  • THS attack bonus vs “Standard Building” increased 4 → 6.
  • THS gets +2 attack bonus vs “Walls and gates”.
  • Champion upgrade cost reduced 750f/350g → 600f/250g and time reduced 100 sec → 75 sec.
  • Champion attack bonus vs “Standard Building” increased 4 → 6.
  • Champion gets +2 attack bonus vs “Walls and gates”.
  • Champion MA increased 1 → 2.
  • Champion is removed from Berbers, Burgundians, Chinese, Cumans, Franks, Magyars, Poles, Portuguese, Teutons tech tree.
  • Pikeman upgrade cost reduced 215f/90g → 175f/75g.
  • New technology “Hoof Cutter” is introduced. (A lame name I know. Someone can suggest a better and more appropriate name). “Hoof Cutter” is available in Barracks once you reach Castle Age. Once researched infantries except UU get +2 attack bonus vs “Cavalry”. “Hoof Cutter” costs 150f/75g and takes 40 sec to research.
  • “Hoof Cutter” is added to tech tree of Bengalis, Byzantines, Celts, Dravidians, Incas, Italians, Khmer, Koreans, Malay, Malians, Magyars, Mongols, Persians, Sicilians, Slavs, Spanish, Tatars, Turks, Vietnamese.

Civilization Balance

Bagains give militia line +5MA → +4MA.

Spearman, Skirmisher and Camel Rider 25% → 15%/20%/25% cheaper in Feudal/Castle/Imperial Age.

Infantry +1 attack bonus vs “Standard Building” per age → Infantry +3 attack bonus vs siege.

If any civ feels underpower or overpower after this change, we can adjust them by adding or removing either champion and/or “Hoof Cutter”.

Edit : I forgot to include UU infantries. Here they are.

  • Standard and elite JW attack bonus vs “Standard Building” increased +2 → +4, and speed 1.00 → 1.10.
  • Samurai cost reduced 60f/30g → 50f/30g. Attack bonus vs “Standard Building” increased +2, +3 → +4, +5.
  • WR attack bonus vs “Standard Building” increased +2, +3 → +5, +6.
  • Berserk attack bonus vs “Standard Building” increased +2, +3 → +4, +5.
  • Huskarl attack bonus vs “Standard Building” increased +2, +3 → +4, +6.
  • TK attack bonus vs “Standard Building” increased +4 → +5, +6.
  • Condottiero attack bonus vs “Standard Building” increased +2 → +4.
  • Shotel Warrior attack bonus vs “Standard Building” increased +0, +1 → +2, +3.
  • Serjeant attack bonus vs “Standard Building” increased +2, +3 → +5, +6.
  • Karambit Warrior attack bonus vs “Standard Building” increased +0, +1 → +2, +3.
  • Urumi Swordsman attack bonus vs “Standard Building” increased +1, +2 → +2, +4.

Honestly, I don’t believe that militia line should have attack bonus vs walls and gates. How do you stop them without a proper counter unit? Walls… So at least you have to pair your infantry with siege.
Disagree with remove arson… Imo should be buffed and make it available for less civs than now (only goths).
About “Hoof cutter”… really don’t like too, sorry. I’d prefer gime militia more base attack and melee armor, and maybe reduce its food cost, rising their gold cost if it were neccesary to balance them.

Or, reduce knights melee armor from 2 to 1, and match their RoF with the infantry’s.

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TBh I don’ see how any of these changes would bring Infantry to a usable state in the migame.
It’s just way, way too liitle.

The nerfs to Knights coul make them a bit more balanced though.

You need to outline the problem and then justify how your changes address it, we can’t read your mind. Why should we remove arson and give the swords bois a bonus against walls and gates? I love arson, it’s like my favourite tech in the game.

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ok, come on. No reason to become spiritual with fiictive gods 11

But I doubt yet alone making arson basically “free” would actually change anything about the militia line. It would probably even effect more units like Chakrams and/or TA if they don’t get a compensation.

If you calculated, you would see only Champion got +1 attack vs palisade wall. And if you are concerned about stone wall, they can get +2 bonus armor to nullify the extra attack.

The 2 melee units that have bonus attack against buildings - militia line and battle elephant - facing a hard time to fit into meta ever since their introduction. Buffing it and making it exclusive won’t make militia line better in general.

Not possible as this will remove Drush and M@rush from opening strategy.

That’s a pretty weak unit for 135 resource and locked until Castle Age.

I have no problem with that.

Implement all the balances together and I believe militia line will be a soft counter to cavalry as intended.

There are plenty of threads identifying problem on this regard. I didn’t think repeating them is necessary.

To keep the damage output of militia line against walls and gates same.

The you will love it even more as you are getting it for free.

Two Handed Swordsman are supposed to have the same HP and amour as Long Swordsman but more attack.
That’s their design.
Champions then get more HP again.

Smoothing out the transition would be boring. I’d rather double down on the differences.
+1 attack for Long Swordsman
+10 HP or +1/0 armour for Champion

It looks like we will get a new Infantry technology called Gambeson instead, which will likely improve Infantry (or just Milita Line) HP or armour.

While i dont agree with these changes overall, what i really dont get is the insane nerf to byz??

Don’t forget the new tech.

I don’t see why these units need bonus attack vs building.

No it’s not. THS had more HP than LS for most of the time and it was better.

Because they are almost OP on pro level and being discussed a bit to be nerfed. New “Hoof cutter” tech should have come with some nerf for them. Personally I wouldn’t ask for this nerf if they didn’t get the tech. But Byzantines design demands open tech tree and I couldn’t hold myself from not giving this tech to Byzantines.

How you calculated it? Because palisades have both, “standard building” and “walls & gates” armor class… So without taking in count melee attack they already deal 8 damage (because masonry and architecture don’t affect infantry bonus vs buildings).
What I concern is making infantry in some way good vs stone walls. I’m ok with infantry taking “wooden” buildings fast, but not stone defenses.
Maybe just giving Stone defenses (walls, gates, castles, krepost, towers, etc) positive standard building armor.

Actually, battle elephant have bonus vs “Building” (same as siege units) and “stone defenses” armor … not “standard buildings”
I’m ok with buffing them, just don’t think this is the way. I already share several times how I think infantry and elephants could be tweaked and none of them include bonus vs buildings. but just different points of view.

Why? Costing less food and more gold promote drush indeed… BO just should be tweaked with more vils in gold (which actually is gathered faster) or delaying loom… but this way MAA and LS will certainly more viable in Feudal and Castle Age.

Why? -1 melee armor just make knights a little worse vs melee units… still have better mobility and still good vs archers and riding.

Ok, we agree in one 11

just no.
no such massive overhauls. incremental changes are the way

I have no idea what you’re calculating here.

LS 9 attack + 3 vs standard building + 2 from blacksmith +2 from Arson
Palisade 2 MA.
So LS does minimum 9+3-2 = 10 damage and maximum 9+3+2+2-2=14 damage.
LS 9 attack + 4 vs standard building +2 vs walls and gates + 2 from blacksmith
Palisade 3 MA.
So LS does minimum 9+4+2-3 = 12 damage and maximum 9+4+2+2-3=14 damage.

Already replied.

They are not taking “wooden” building fast tbh as they have the same damage in the end.

Just give 2 armor on “walls and gates” armor. Then increase Tarkan attack bonus by +2 if necessary.

Yeah but doesn’t change the picture.

Depends on how much. If you can’t train at least 2 militia with the starting gold, say goodbye to Drush strategy.

Meta won’t shift on that side. Players focus on food a lot compared to old pre-DE era. Also more gold will nerf late game champion play a lot.

Because there are just too many melee units that knight have to face - pikeman, camel, eagle, opposite knight, and BE in TG. -1MA for knight automatically means camel lose 1 bonus attack vs cavalry in Castle Age. And maybe even Eagle as well. Although I have a strong feeling that knight line may lose 1MA from base stat and will be restored to current armor by new Gamberson tech.

Doesn’t seem like a massive overhaul to me tbh. Maybe you’re focusing too much on the new technology that I proposed. The effect won’t be that big when more than half of the civs don’t get the tech.

My mistake, I calculated your proposed changes without removing arson from the ecuation.
Your results are right but If i’m not wrong you are operating in the wrong way. You have to pair the armor classes for the operation.
This way: (Melee attack-melee armor) + (Standard building bonus - Standar building armor)+… and so on.
In this case there is no problem, but if the armor class is more than the damage then the damage is 1, don’t care how higher is the armor. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Well… maybe they should.

Maybe, but late game champion is not a thing, but if you make them viable in castle age, then is more likely that you upgrade them in imp.

Yeah you’re right. But here it doesn’t change anything.

It is a thing for some civ like Malians, Goths, Slavs, and occasionally for Japanese, Celts. This strategy is seen less and less nowadays as LC/Hussar raid is way stronger.

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Buffing infantry might break the game and skyrocket goths to the top 1 if the devs aren’t careful, the obuch pretty much showed how terrible is that a cheap unit can tanks lots of arrows and exchange well vs anything, now imagine a man at arms that already beats a scout having bonus vs cavalry or being fast enough to catch archers.

I’m pretty sure the devs are perfectly aware of that.
Japanese and Vikings are dangerous too.
33% faster attack with all upgrades is quite strong.

Let’s first list out the current issues with Militia line and UU:

  1. Too slow
  2. Countered by range units
  3. Multiple upgrades for militia line
  4. Upgrades and cost for certain UUs expensive (Looking at you, Woads)
  5. Only cost effective against spear line and maybe skirms


  1. LS removed
  2. THS moved to Castle age, -2 Atk, +1 PA. 5% faster
  3. Militia +x against Cav starting Castle age
  4. Champion upgrade cost and time decreased, +2 Atk, +5hp
  5. WR upgrade cost reduced, comparable to other infantry UU
  6. Infantry UU +x% faster, depends on individual case
  7. Celts get the bonus starting Dark age again
  8. Infantry UUs buffed with HP and cost reduced (Not you, Obuch)

Personally, I think Lith speak line shouldn’t be faster then Celt Spear line, so +5% speed bonus to Celt spears

arguably true, depends on the unit. eg woads and zergs are pretty fast

not an issue but by design

also by design

most elite upgrades are expensive, how is this a problem

this is where i somewhat agree. (i mean also effective against eagles and some other units)

I think just reducing the speed to upgrade would be a good step. let that play out for a while and if necessary we can add more. remember that if militia line ever manages to push you off gold there is no counter play. there is no trash unit you can make to reclaim it


I think i disagree with 95% of your changes. It feels more like an infantry nerf then a buff or balancing. Would like cheaper champion tech though

I was late. We got Gambeson instead of “Hoof Cutter”.