How about Saracen Camels? They got +30 HP from unique tech (Imperial Age).
Let’s suppose you have 60 ranged unit group. This can make a lot difference. I don’t know how much we do overkill.
Gonna put a comparison:
Obsidian Arrows: 300 food, 300 gold, belongs to a civ with the cheapest foot archers and one of the most impressive eco.
Chieftains: 700 food, 500 gold, belongs to a strong civ that actually depends on Infantry which also lacks halberdier, and still are S tier so that mis-called nerf doesn’t nothing.
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Interesting, because when i asked they said they are probably the strongest civ in 1v1 arabia and that they deserve a little nerf.
The mobility of the army comes much later for tatars, who were considered a drush-fc civ. Kotd arabia, being that open, was literally one of the worse map possible for them.
They are not supposed to be tanky. They are supposed to counter cavarly, that’s it. Why not buff skirms at this point since they are not seen in tgs. Let’s give them more attacks for no reason at all or something like that 11
That relies on crossbows 'till you can switch to zergs, a unit that with chieftains researched becomes beastly against cavarly too.
But yeah, obsidian arrow should just be a +3/+4 or something like that
It was literally buffed from that +4 long time ago.
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This is not true. Vikings is actually an Archer civ on Land maps, whose main unit is the Arbalest.
You do not need Chieftains to make Berzerkers trade off with Cavalry either.
I agree on the second.
For berries I would reduce it only to 20%, since they are already one of the slowest sources of food (I personally wouldn’t even touch that bonus…).
However, I feel that the recent “franks are OP and everyone is using them” is because franks were suggested by some pros to noobs and intermediate players for ranked, so most of this argument is because of a misconception, at least in my opinion…
A bit like the old “new DE persians”…
Totally agree.
Mmm, that’s still a lot of food… maybe they could still get 2 sheeps but lose the extra food.
I actually think that vikings are one of the few Civ that are balanced onestly, so I wouldn’t change them.
I agree on the IC TT, but for the atk I would reduce the bonus vs cav by 2 instead of reducing the base atk.
You need to extend it to all buildings (except for towers and castles) if you want it to become a meaningful eco bonus in my opinion.
That’s a big nerf on water, consider that a 10% discount on age ups is less than 10% discount on dock’s techs. So if you substitute a 20% with a 10% of an even minor absolute number, they actually lose a ton of resources.
I made a similar suggestion (20/33%) but I also suggested that those techs aren’t just 20/33% cheaper, but also researched in 20/33% less time.
Or leave them as they are and give them free xbow tech.
NOTE: stupid me, I misread what you wrote on them, I corrected myself on another post.
Those changes would heavily buff their late game spam and it would do nothing to their early game laming.
I instead would give them a small food bonus at the start and remove conscription.
I would also make that loom is research instantly when you click to feudal, and they start with 50g less.
I hope that my feedback helped.
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Didn’t you disagree buff to general units? Why you propose buff all camels to Indian camel and militia line speed buff? I don’t get it.
Camels are good against Cavarly and can raid with their mobility and they are not intended to good against Archer. Why all castle age camels can be the same level of Indian camel?
Also, I don’t think infantry need speed buff. They are perfectly viable regardless of how people in this forum think. Especially for Malians/Goths. Malians champions are already too strong that civ lacking heavy cavarly are hard to counter that unit. Also more mobile infantry are more hard to countered by HC, and civs lacking champion will have more hard matchup against Goths.
Camels and Infantry will become more good against Archer after those change, and it would indirectly nerf archer civs such as Ethiopians/Korans/Vietnamese, and they are not deserve nerf. How to compensate those civs?
Same with Cavarly archer. They are strong regardless of what people think. I just watched game in RBW3 Nicov vs Vinchester and Vinchester win with Magyar Cav archer that Khmer Nicov cannot stop it. Also Tatars and Turks are already become decent civs after anniversary patch and I don’t think buff to cavarly archer frame delay without stat nerf is good for game. More than 10 years of Huns war meta prove that Cavarly archer easily dominate game.
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LOL sorry, I read this part just now 11
Cancel what I said about Italians before, just reduce the dock discount to 40% instead of 30% and this way they may work.
I like the extra PA, but I fear that we will never see it…
I think a start would be 20%. I like the UT swap.
Too many nerfs. I’d just go with obsidian arrows nerf.
Their win % isn’t all that high still but if the top players unanimously think it is too strong then give them 1 extra cow instead of 2 extra sheep.
I think a nice way to slightly nerf Vikings is to switch wheelbarrow and handcart research times. Now every other civ only has to idle their TC in feudal for 55 sec instead of 75 sec. You research handcart in castle age, which now takes longer, but are still producing vills from other TCs which doesn’t hurt your eco as much.
I think giving them arbalests with their current setup should be tried out since it would primarily only benefit 1v1. Also I hope to see some elephant archer buff.
Interesting idea. Not sure how much it will help. I think allowing missionaries to pick up relics but slowing down to monk speed would be a nice buff.
Probably too much change. Maybe go with 40% cheaper dock techs and 20% cheaper age up for starters. The +1 PA seems too strong.
Probably not needed but sure.
Ah so going back to the pre-DE military bonus 11. I think the current discount is fine. I like the armor and the population buff.
I like these.
This might make Huns too good.
I agree to all, but i have more about Tatars to say. I think they should get only +1 or cow/sheep in feudal and shouldn’t get any more sheeps under each TC in castle age.
Too similar to the Incan Bonus
So the Tatars which are clearly terrible at Arena should lose the bonus that svaes them to be that bad? 11
they have the same attack bonus vs cavalry that heavy camel does.
its not meant to be a long term bonus. its just meant to give them a little extra umph in the early game.
except this helps in castle age. spanish already have a strong castle age and imperial age. they are weak in the early game and that’s where they need love.
No, their +2 sheeps in feudal with their 50% more food is more than enough
I meant 1 extra cow instead of 2 extra sheep.
and how often do we actually see Saracens going camels in team games at all?
currently saracen heavy camels have 170 HP and take 29 hits to kill from arbs.
post PA increase tehy would take 34 hits to kill.
not on arena it isn’t.
They can be so smooth even with these +2 sheeps in feudal with their +50% on sheeps, they are more than enough which allow them to get heavy plow without a single farm
and still stink on arena overall.
Their boom is the best in Arena after their last buff, they don’t need the 2 sheeps under each tc