My Proposed Changes

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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First things First. Address the Matchmaking problems and Team Game ELO Ratings.
Also need to continue cleaning up Bugs and pathing problems.

Balance Changes

Nerfs to Top Civs
Franks - They need an early game nerf to slow down their snowball.
Cavalry HP bonus moved back to castle age - this means that their scouts are generic and won’t have head to head advantages against other civs scouts.
would also accept (though i don’t prefer it as much) removal of the berry bonus.
For Team Games i think Chivalry needs a nerf but my problem with this is that if you nerf Chivalry down to 30% you’re basically requiring a castle and a payment for a slightly better version of the Huns bonus.

Mayans
Longer Lasting resources nerfed to 10%.
Archer discount changed to 10-15-20%.
El Dorado cost increased to 900 food and 650 gold.

Chinese - this civ needs a nerf i am just unsure how to go about it without utterly trashing the civ at lower skill levels. and while generally i believe that balancing around the top is the way, i also think civs should be at least playable by all.

Vikings - Free Wheelbarrow and Handcart changed to - Free WB and HC but need to be researched (researched in 1/3 of the time).
Clearly losing thumbring didn’t do anything to nerf Vikings viability at all, and does nothing to nerf their water dominance.

Aztecs - This civ needs a nerf but its so tightly tuned i am unsure how to go about it.

Lithuanians - starting food bonus reduced to 100.

Buffs
Byzantines Logistica affects knights (Trample damage only).
or Gains Bloodlines BUT Elite/Cataphract lose 20 HP and lose access to Heavy Cav Archer.

Portuguese
Feitoria reworked - Feitoria is now a town center that can be built starting in castle age that costs +100 wood and +50 stone, all resources returned are increased by 10%. (This is just an idea, the goal is feitoria useful on land maps and not op on water maps).

Incas - Team Bonus changed to affect mill research speed in addition to faster building farms.

Goths - Gain plate barding or Thumb ring.

Spanish - Faster building speed bonus is doubled for houses and mills/lumber/mining.

Italians - age up discount increased to 20%.
docks and university techs discount decreased to 25%.
gain Siege Engineers.
Burmese - unique techs swap places. adjust prices and numbers as neccesary.

water change to facilitate better balance - the following civs gain access to shipwright.
Berbers, Indians, and Saracens

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Berry bonus my dear, berry bonus.

I honestly wouldn’t nerf chinese. They are awful on closed maps and are very hard countered by halb SO in imp and while they are dominant on arabia, I don’t think it justifies a general nerf.

Won’t happen, Vikings got the change that the devs think they needed. Regardless, I’d rather have it WB and HV be free, but have to be researched, or research instantly, but still cost the resources. Probably the latter. Much easier to comprehend, enough of a nerf by itself and actually gives opportunities for variance in the builds in early feudal. I actually believe vikings will get buffed soon, in post imp. Maybe they will get last cavalry armor, maybe.

Same. But buff their post imp.

Not needed, liths are a versatile, low eco civ with a variety of openings to choose from that doesn’t scale that well in the midgame, bar the knight attack. I don’t think lithuanians need a nerf after the thing with blast furnace, they must be a good cavalry pocket civ to compete with franks. At least one civ must be able to compete with franks.

Interesting, but won’t change much. Your comp is either arb camel or skirm pike, you never want to go for knights, cavalier, let alone pala. Pala + logistica… In deathmatch sure, maybe. Byza are bad in 1v1, this in no way changes their 1v1 state.

Nah, make feitorias a smaller version of what they are and available in feudal/castle. No need for a building that doubles as a tc and generates resources and takes pop and idk what else.

Still useless. I saw something about units on farms counting for +1 elevation. Could be too strong for defense, but who knows. I still am a fan of the houses thing becoming a team bonus and incas getting a units move 10% faster on farms bonus.

Goths have bloodlines…

Straight up doubled, or +15%/+30%/+45%/+60% if you want it relevant and not OP on nomad. It’s a nice bonus that can be increased without worrying about overturning it.

Dock and age up fair. I personally believe Italians, Spanish and Burgundians should have siege engineers, but I think the devs have other ideas about civ design.

Yea.

Idk what else to say. Ok-ish ideas, but don’t address enough when it comes to the particular reasons a civ is performing the way it is.

Also about Vikings- probably make Berserkergang affect all infantry units and give them a buff to scorpions. Make them an infantry - scorpion civ in imp and people will stop complaining and then you can gut their eco without everyone crying a river about how their imp is bad. Scorpions +25% attack, easy lol.

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thats also acceptable, as said above, but either would work.

and what happend with the thumb ring nerf? nothing. the civ is still dominant. nothing changed. still dominant on water too.

The problem with Lithuanians is they are just great on all maps.
Hybrid maps, Open Maps, and even Arena style maps. I honestly think they are fine but the goal was to see more variety, as in other civs. and yes. i completely agree someone needs to compete with Franks at the top for Cav Civs, but Frankly even more i think Archers need to be looked at in general.

which is weird because frankly the civ has literally everything it needs to compete in 1v1.

was just throwing out an option. as i said. goal is to make feitoria useful on land but remove the water dominance.

still better then it was, and still better then some team bonuses out there.

sorry meant final armor.

thats why i would straight up remove it working on town centers until they hit castle age. also im only doubling it on houses, mining camps, lumber camps and mills. not military buildings or whatnot.

Burgundians are strong enough as is. Spanish and Italians i oculd def see.

im fine with Vikings being the great civ with a great eco but bad in the late game.

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Lithuanians die to infantry quite hard. They are good yes, versatile yes, but not the best on any map. And out of 40 civs I think it’s safe for the game state to have such a civ. We don’t want them to become Persians 2.0 tbh

Except bloodlines, an eco bonus, and a strong unit to carry their backline like Magyars do with the CA, or Koreans with the WW.

Byzantines are in an OK spot, but need a small buff to their midgame in my opinion. Hence why I had proposed Greek Fire becoming an expensive chemistry that requires a castle.

Their early game is tolerable with a trush/trash forward or just regular militia/maa opening, and their lategame is… not the best, but not the worst either.

It’s just that they get outpaced by every other civ in the castle age and both of their compositions die to knight xbow.

The goal should be to make feitorias usable on something other than water maps. About water… IDC. If more civs had good water options we wouldn’t think Ports are OP. Besides, in which tourney was it, on Islands we saw that with quick CGs from chemistry you can counter the portuguese. It’s a strategy like any other, if you get in a post imp situation on arabia and the wood runs out it’s the same. Or if you are playing ara, get to post imp and your opponent is magyars. Some civs have their unique strengths, I think it’s more than fair to have 1 out of 40 designed in this way.

Goth imp is fine. They are fine tbh. Maybe, maybe, make their loom free again, but it was too strong for laming and militia/maa opening. Goths are fine in TG and 1v1, they don’t need FU cavalier and hussar.

And this type of workarounds I hate. I love dark age bonuses that make civs unique from the get go. The sicilian one was too strong, the briton one would be too strong, but the spanish one is fine.

If they had a worse eco and a better land post imp they wouldn’t be as dominant on water maps too. All the fixes with just one change in the concept of vikings, without altering the civ too much either.

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completely agree with you. there.

except all the stats show the weak spot is the early game.

no, they really aren’t. the civ is god awful at the highest level. yeah they trash the ladder because people sit back and play for imp which plays right into goths hands.

and yet if you doubled it, it would not be fine. and staggering it to 15/30/45/60 doesn’t help spanish where they actually need help. in the early game. their castle age is more then fine. their imp is stellar.

actually no. a bad eco makes a bad civ. go look at the best civs. an early eco bonus carries them. you trash vikings eco and they have no reason to be played.

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I… don’t agree. Even on BF 4v4 (3k+) they have very strong openings with 4tc booming. I have seen goths beat even teutons in post imp. They fall off because they are predictable, but when their whole identity is infantry that’s just expected. Besides, they aren’t that linear. HC, huss, skirms are all options they have. Huskarl HC wins against most compositions that are supposed to counter goths regardless.
Sure, pubstompy boring civ that does only 1 thing great but… that’s goths for you.

Oh, no, no, I want spanish to receive early game buffs. Not just faster building. It’s why I don’t care if that particular thing is staggered. Also as a player with a lot of post imp experience I appreciate their extremely open tree, full trash and supremacy bbt push, but they are nothing special. A lot of things they do, but they aren’t amazing at them. They die to ca/huss, they die to mamelukes, they die to halb so. If it were up to me I’d buff elite conqs and give them siege engineers.

Not trash it, just make it not as oppressive. If their wheel and hc were insta research but cost res they would have to make a choice. Do they want the superb eco, or do they want an aggressive maa opening or a fast fletching? Makes things more interesting.

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so basically on any map where you can sit back and boom. nvm that blackforest 4v4 at that skill level isn’t played all that much. nvm that they are still trash in 1v1.

which would basically require giving them another civ bonus. for someone who wants to take the franks berry bonus to give it to new civs, giving spanish a new bonus kind of takes away from giving stuff to new civs. instead why not tweak what is there?

not really. they would just go for the eco with archers behind it. archers currently dominate the feudal age.

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Sure why not?
I don’t mind handing out civ bonuses where they are needed, and I don’t mind taking them away where they aren’t needed.

Because it’s not enough, clearly. Why do Persians only have 2 bonuses while Teutons have 6? Different strengths, different focuses. Some things get added, some get removed. All for a better and more interesting meta and game experience overall.

Then their fletching will be delayed a lot because of needing eco upgrades, you will have a window to attack, and also they won’t be a minute and a half faster to castle age and crossbows because they had to spend an extra 175f and 50w in feudal. Same for their fast imp potential, it’s still there, just slower, or with a worse eco behind it, because you had to spend 300f 200w on hc. There you have it: they don’t have the oppressive timings anymore, they still have a good eco if they so wish, they are nerfed on water maps too, we can buff their post imp without fearing for 60% winrate, and everyone is crying tears of joy. They now have to choose between having the best eco, the fastest ageup time, or an amazing army. Not all 3 at the same time.

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Except why is it needed?

if the 30% faster building is enough to make spanish a great nomad civ, why wouldn’t doubling it for other houses and eco buildings help them on other maps?

and yet its proven that build speed can be a very effective bonus. you just need to tweak the numbers.

the only eco upgrades they would realistically need is DBA and WB. and they could easily just mix in a few skirms early. either way i just don’t think it will have some huge impact that would necessitate buffing there late game.

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Spanish have no identity, their early game is the same as byzantines except they don’t get cheap trash units either.

It very much is needed to make them competitive on arabia, and it’s not me who’s saying it, or rather not just me, it’s all the pro players too. Spanish are underperforming on all levels on all maps on all settings in all ages EXCEPT nomad where they have an actual eco bonus, and arguably on the lower levels arena where monks aren’t discovered yet and neither are skirmishers or walling behind or fast imperials.

Because on nomad it’s an eco bonus. 1 immediate dark age villager to be precise, effectively on nomad spanish start with 4 villagers instead of 3. This in 15 minutes translates to 300 resources gathered more.
Any other buildings being built faster will save maybe up to 50 villager seconds in that time, or about 16 resources. Faster building is nice, but balance wise only relevant for walls, town centers, castles and towers. Everything else is like the byzantines free town watch. It’s cool, it’s there, it helps you out sometimes, but it can’t be considered a relevant economic, military or infrastructure bonus. In fact, free town watch and patrol is better because it actually helps a lot with defense.

For town centers, walls, castles and towers. And sicilians already have that so I don’t know why you would think such a complicated and already used bonus might be up for discussion.

I can guarantee you that if vikings had instant, but not free wheelbarrow their win percentage would fall to under 50. Go ask Viper, Nili, Hera, whoever your meta guru is, how big of an impact those 225 resources in early feudal and 500 in early castle will make.

And it’s not “just mixing in a few skirms”, because that slows you down even more. Those small things add up and suddenly you arent 15 seconds ahead to castle, you are 15 seconds behind. And you are on the defensive and you lost the villager because of the crossbows on your woodline, not his, that you couldn’t engage because you didn’t have the upgrades and he did. And it’s not your siege workshop in the middle of the map, it’s his, and he is the aggressor, and you are behind, not him. Because this is how the game works on the higher levels, and it’s why those little timing things are all there is to winning or losing a game.

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it’s an eco bonus on other maps too.
60% faster mills means you get to berries or deer faster.
lumbercamps mean you get to wood faster. is it much individually? no. but it adds up.

that’s why i’m not asking to take away resources. i’m taking away some of the villager advantage they get for it. i don’t want to trash the civ. but then again, compared to other civs out there, i don’t think 225 resources in early feudal would seem bad to those civs. look at how bad Koreans are outside of 1 build. It’s why i’m heavily against heavy handed nerfs to civs because look what happened to the aforementioned persians, or cumans and tatars when SL got nerfed.

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The opposite is better, because it gives you more options in terms of playstyle.

All due respect, the double castle WW is strong, but Koreans are not weak at all outside of it on closed maps, especially 4v4. Halb SO with extra range, BBT, BBC, insane UU, fast imp potential… They are often seen on bf and arena not just for the WW spam.

They could use a small rework of course…

I have to agree that the response for cumans and tatars wasn’t very timely and for persians we are still waiting. On the other hand, because of those heavy hand nerfs, they now have an identity that’s not just spamming steppe lancers. And while I do think the unit should be buffed, I also find the approach good because it gave us time on how to shape those civs. No change is final, just look at indians with their camels, and I’d rather prefer big nerfs and buffs in different areas over small steps towards a perfectly balanced game mostly because change keeps us coming back. If the game was perfect and we had a 50% WR for all civs on all maps… It would be more boring. Drafting wouldn’t matter. Identity and hard counters wouldn’t be a thing.

So yeah, adapt, guess, test, change. This is how the game stays fresh and all big franchises like LoL, Dota, Starcraft know it.

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come on. closed maps are the mass minority of maps played except at nub skill levels.

doesn’t change the fact that they literally nuked the civs into uselessness for a long time.

i’d rather civs not be useless for a year or more at a time.

i’m not asking for perfect balance though.

you mean the starcraft that is dead? hasn’t had a balance patch in almost 2 years? pro scene is dieing? ladder numbers dwindling?

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That’s not related to the changes, it’s related to the speed at which the developers work.

Same as above.

Well there you have it, supposedly perfect balance is reached, patches stop coming, game dies.

Look, in a perfect world we will be getting a patch with relevant changes every 2 months. We all know we aren’t microsoft’s top priority. Still, as I have expressed before, civs like Huns, Vikings have been on the top for literally 20 years. Franks, Mayans- 10. Even if we gutted them and we saw the dusk of the S tiers, and we played Saracens vs Malay and Spanish vs Slavs for 6 months, most of us will be happy that we finally saw some change in the meta. And after enough iterations of that we will reach a better balance in 1v1 and TG anyway. So, to me, with all changes - be liberal, strike with the big guns, nobody is going to die if Franks don’t have a 10% play rate for a while. Try the change, if we don’t like it, we can revert, or alter it in some way etc. As long as there is a change and we experience new things.

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they shouldn’t nerf civs into uselessness period.

no where close to perfect.

I don’t know if i’d say huns are top anymore.

would we? i literally saw this asked this on reddit a couple of months ago and the responses was overwhelmingly against it.

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They shouldn’t. I was mad. Bulgarians too, konniks still attack once every year. But whatever happened happened. If it hadn’t happened Bulgarians would still be a spam krepost and konnik civ. Now they are the only civ with halb so and ca-huss compositions available and their identity of using compositions is even more clear.

Ask what? Besides, reddit is reddit. Average elo probably 800, average hours in the game probably 90, 60 of which against AI. If they were in charge of things longbows would have 3 range, huskarls would have -5 pierce armor and fortified walls would cost 50 stone each.

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Some ideas to nerf eagles:

  • Eagle scouts no longer get better stats at castle age
  • Eagle scoit created faster but eagle warrior costs more
  • Eagle warrior/EEW -1 attack or -1 vs cav
  • Eagle warrior +5 food cost
    Not all of them ofc but maybe omr or two of them could work

Franks lose farm bonus but get faster berry bush collection

Aztec lose extra gold

Chinese start with +2 vills and -150 food, TCs no longer support extra pop. Extra town center range replaces the old TB or just give them the inca TB. Seems pretty accurate to say that China isnt a good ally considering they didnt really get well with anyone

The archer and Dorado change seem fine but would rather nerf eagles over resources lasting longer

Vikings lose something for their archer push maybe? Or could just give , infantry +10/20/30% extra hp (with Zerks nerfed accordingly, non-elite longboats created slower and elite upgrade is more expensive, gain siege onager and/or bombard towers? Elite Zerk is again more expensive? Idk really.

Incas team bonus now grant allies +45 food on farms (to bslance eagle nerf) and maybe start with two additional llama

Arent Liths fine? Either way seems like an okay chamge

That Byz change feels so unnecesary imo. They are more than fine. Also 25% cheaper castle age FU camels? 11

I like that change for Italians except for the siege engineers change. This buffs them where they dont need to be buffed

Goths need a rework, that change doesnt fix anything

Same goes for Spanish and Burmese

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This is reasonable.
i don’t think their offensive stats need to be nerfed at all.

they were one of the most popular civs in kotd4 and are still insanely popular on arena and hybrid maps. my goal was a minimal nerf to their overall potential.

that’s why i lean towards the logistica change. and its mainly aimed at team games.

not really a fan of completely changing how civs work top to bottom.

this really doesn’t do crap if you ask me. if anything it makes them stronger because they can go up to feudal faster.

how much extra range? because that sounds completely busted.

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Oops meant to say extra town center LoS. My bad

It merfs their midgame and leaves us with a bonus that we can buff or nerf more easily than the current Frankish bonuses

I dont mean completely. I mean something alike Teutons or Koreans

Considering Byz arent a bad team game civ (they are fine for archers) I would rather leave them alone. Either way its not a big change but still seems unnecesary and possibly too strong

This is a fine change either way but it may make them a bit too meh.

Fair enough

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Also, what about Feitorias granting +25% villager production(res last 25% longer and villagers work 25% faster)?