Nerf Archer Plan 2: No longer get extra range from Blacksmith technologies

Because of their theme.

Precisely.

Not because speed in general is good, but because they had to find a bonus that helps both. Anyway if speed in general was so good, then why is it seen as the worst Lith bonus?

You don’t seem to consider it a bad bonus as you comment below:

And it happens that more speed on a unit that counters cavalry is good, and more speed on a unit that needs to keep its distance is good too.

A cav archer that is still slower than Teuton cav even after researching Husbandry. And 15% less wood of 25 wood is almost nothing, and definitely less than the bonuses that make Korean go towers. The thing that is so slow it doesn’t move at all.

A cav archer still. Weren’t tower rushes nerfed?

Teutons also have a wood bonus that helps for archers. Does it make them faster? And Celts have among the worst archery range in the game, and it slows their Castle/Imp transition (along with their awkward cav) and yet they see play even in the most biased/tryhard tournaments (see HC3)

Well obviously no, but a common request is for Teutons to get Husbandry or make TK faster.

Well yes, Celts have a good economic bonus, excellent siege and the second fastest infantry UU.

Oops, I should have given the time directly. Anyway, the point was that those bad, unupgraded swordsmen literally were the game winning move. Do you see Viking Cavaliers or Huns Xbows winning games like that?

Yes, they participated in the entire match-up between Viper and Villese for 1 minute. The remaining game relied on archers, cav archers, scouts etc.

Being worse than something is different from being bad. +4 Paladins, lightning fast monk rushes on Arena and a mass of free ressources that can give you super fast early agression are all better than faster trash, but the additional speed does make sense and does help them still.

Then I could say Teuton paladin = paladin still right?

Nerfed is different from being unusable. Koreans can still tower rush and they still have better bonuses geared toward that than archer rush.

The deal is that any archer/knight that you had in Castle is going to be obsolete the second you’re Imp, and thus you have to tech into siege/infantry. Since unlike some other civs you can’t just rely on your previous army it slwos your transition. It’s a known weakness of the civ and yet they are still good. Also Woad are good because they are fast but also because they just have plain better stats than Champs. And Siege units are slow (unless ur Mongol I guess)

What would have happened if he tried to kill Halbs+ Rams with his cav archers? He wouldn’t have won in 1 minute. I still don’t know how would you win a game with cav/archers with equally bad upgrades, in Imp. The closest I’ve seen is Daut winning vs the Viper with Briton cav… Because Viper was Korean. And it didn’t took 1 minute.

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Then I could say Teuton paladin = paladin still right?

Yes a Teuton Paladin is still a paladin. Unless it identifies as an archer. We need to ask him to make sure.j.k.

The deal is that any archer/knight that you had in Castle is going to be obsolete the second you’re Imp, and thus you have to tech into siege/infantry. Since unlike some other civs you can’t just rely on your previous army it slwos your transition. It’s a known weakness of the civ and yet they are still good. Also Woad are good because they are fast but also because they just have plain better stats than Champs. And Siege units are slow (unless ur Mongol I guess)

Woad raiders cost 5f and 5g more, have 10 more hp, 1 melee armor less, have smaller bonuses vs eagle warriors and buildings, move much faster and are produced in half the time.

What would have happened if he tried to kill Halbs+ Rams with his cav archers? He wouldn’t have won in 1 minute. I still don’t know how would you win a game with cav/archers with equally bad upgrades, in Imp. The closest I’ve seen is Daut winning vs the Viper with Briton cav… Because Viper was Korean. And it didn’t took 1 minute.

Vellese didn’t scout properly. If he had, he would have made more scorpions. But we are moving to should, could, would territory and I’m only interested in what actually happened.

Anyhow, in conclusion, we agree that there is no need to change the archers.

You can counter them with both cavalry and skirmishers.

This is the first time I hear that. Even Longbows with 12 range can be killed easily.

You knight rush someone and with the armor upgrade they can kill lots of archers before going down.

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Woad are indeed slightly sifferent but overall it leads to them being better than Champs always.

I guess agreeing on not changing archer is the most relevant part, since it’s the subject of the thread 11

With DE’s subpar pathing it’s less true but yeah, the second it’s fixed these forums are going to be filled with “nerf Knights” threads.

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yeah you “definitely” can when they are 60 arbalests (or ants.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU41HjTF83M See that? How this bad cav with only attack upgrades handle one of the best archers available? If you just don’t run your cav in chokepoints beating cav with archers is definitely doable.

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If the enemy has 60 arbs, you might as well have 30 paladins. Who you think will win.

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To be honest, it is harder to upgrade Knights into Paladins, than it is to upgrade Crossbows into Arbalests.

Of course it is, but since he is referring to a comment that is talking knights vs “archers” (probably meant crossbows) and decided to suddenly upgrade them I did the same. You could even be generous that cause of the upgrades you’d make it 25 vs 60 as a medium for the whole course of the match, paladins would still win.

I don’t know if 25 paladins win against 60 Arbalests.

Arbalests are pretty strong!

They most definately do beat them. You need 60 arbs to kill 1 paladin in 1 shot. But you only need 4 paladins to kill an arb in 1 shot. Even trying to focus fire the paladins down, you ultimately lose to them, cause the moment they catch up to you, you start losing numbers much faster and then killing a paladin just starts taking longer and longer until they don’t even kill them anymore and just die away.

I had a box setup where the paladins start on the other side and arbs on the other and put them into a corner, at first paladins lose some numbers but the rate goes down fast.

Did the Arbs have space to retreat?

Yeah I was able to barely win when I gave myself adequate room to retreat, but the thing is that testing this against ai doesn’t bring a good result cause it doesn’t even try to foresee my plan of continuously shooting and retreating so it doesn’t try to surround my units with its greater speed, instead keeps just attacking the front and be dumb when I start moving again. If you did this against a player they could surround you up so eventually you will start taking proper losses.

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definitely it s gonna be arbs. cos they wont be alone, they will be supported by halberdier thrashes. simple. and even if they were alone, check out the economic outcome. 30 paladins * 60f 60g bla bla against 25w 45g * 60 arbs bla bla…

winners’ stats: 90% of the time they would be using archers as the main force of their battles.

Ok. Then why is the paladin alone. You had 60 arbs, now you have halbs mixed in, why would the enemy go towards them with pure paladins. You are just adding things up as you go, now suddenly archers aren’t dominating anymore so your earlier comment:

loses whatever merit it ever had.

What you want me to check? The 30 paladins cost less total resources than the 60 arbs and even more so if you only look at the pure gold cost.

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And besides. Have you ever even looked at what they cost? Pfff.

and i knew u were gonna talk about nothing but that. i used “bla bla” for a reason. i didnt say 20f 20g if you have brains.

why would i not talk about other resources. are they nothing?