Nerf caroleans? A little too absurd?

Age of Empires III: DE III - Discussion
84

Caroleans do fine against cav, weaker than musk in melee because they lack melee multipliers but if the cavalry attack is too hesitant or doesnt have an overwhelming cavalry mass then the swedes can just pick them off 1 by 1. Caroleans are half the price of a hussar and get the same melee attack, Caroleans do get 30% melee resistance however while hussars get 20% ranged resistance. this makes the fight heavily Carolean favoured in terms of cost. Lancers are the only cavalry that can trade moderately cost effective but you need an overwhelming mass and an open field to slam to caroleans from multiple sides.

i suppose german uhlans are an option aswel if you mix them with skirmishers, its quite easy to mass a lot of uhlan. if your map has a lot of gold ofcourse.

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85

I know I am not an experienced player by any means, have been casually playing AoE3 for a long time (since original release), love DE so far. In terms of balance, I kinda get where the devs were trying to go with Caroleans, but the cavalry counter at range doesn’t make any historical sense after a lot of reading about them online. I feel like if they removed all the ranged cavalry bonuses, the unit would immediately balance out as is, no other changes. the fact that the Carolean counters other infantry as well as it does makes the most historical sense, since they were so damn intimidating, BUT they have zero reason historically for countering cavalry at range.

Do people think this would be enough, as it reduces the number of roles the Carolean directly fills from three to two, it means you need Pikeman to counter cavalry, and it maintains its uniqueness as a heavy infantry that reverses the tide against light infantry?

ALSO, the main reason why I hate Caroleans having ranged bonuses against cavalry (besides the obvious balance issues already presented by other more experienced players and more than enough evidence to prove so) is that Sepoys feel WAY less special now, and I really like Sepoys as being good at cavalry at range and melee, since they had to deal with rogue elephants in their army, which is more historically accurate than any Carolean being anti-cavalry at range.

Since I have zero competitive experience, I would love to hear from better players on simply removing ALL ranged damage bonuses from Caroleans, and leaving everything else as is.

Discuss!

EDIT1: Also historically important, not having any cavalry bonuses would more accurately reflect how careful you as a player would need to be with your Caroleans, since they would get immediately owned by cavalry, which is something Sweden did a very good job of doing back then since they had smaller armies than everyone else.

EDIT2: Just realized the Platoon Fire card would have to be reworked, which is totally doable, very easy enough, just remove all the cavalry bonuses and have the card just increase Carolean ranged attack by 10% (the bottom three effects in the card are all that would remain).

86

They shouldn’t win against melee-focused heavy infantry in melee.

87

they shouldnt win vs skirmishers in ranged too but they are wining :smiley:

88

You’re doing something wrong, skirm type units destroy them in range, even with the range resist card

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89

I don’t mind that they win vs hand heavy inf as long as its not lopsided. I’d like if they kill hand infantry in 1 less swing than being killed by said infantry, 2 swings differential max. Before this nerf one carolean age 2 no upgrades could slaughter a age 2 rod in 12 melee swings… meanwhile it would take that same rod 20 melee swings to kill a carolean… the rod is about 3vil sec cheaper and gets slaughtered??? This doesn’t make sense to me… nevermind the fact the carolean can gun down the rod before it even gets into melee range.

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90

Musk are suppose to win againt mele infantry specially for swedon as they don’t have skirmishers.

91

Not at all, and Sweden does have Skirmishers, the Leather Cannon is a Skirmisher Artillery unit like the Abus Gun.

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93

X3 Multiplier vs Infantry, and the devs themselves said it was Sweden’s Skirmisher replacement.

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94

It doesn’t matter , they don’t kill heavy infantry fast , they don’t have multiplier vs heavy infantry , just are just wrak artillary with bonus vs all infantry , they can’t replace skirmishers . Use ur mind inseatd of reading description , and none use leather cannons unless no other option , husser are better at killing skirmishers than leather cannons , and leather cannons are not good vs heavy infantry . Dev might have tried to make then like skirmishers , but failed. Learn game mechanics before making statement .leather cannons are just bad , may be a bit good at killing skirmishers , but definately not worth the cost and population to kill heavy infantry .

Swedon still rely on musk-husser combo.

Dude learn first what is the role of skirmishers

95

They do.

Also, you accused me of not knowing the counter system, when THE DEVS themselves said Leather Cannon = Swedish Skirmisher.

It is not my fault you do not pay attention to specifically mentioned and noted design choices, that the devs made incredibly public, ON RELEASE!

Swedes have Skirms, Cannon Skirms.
Wether you think it matters or not, a X3 multiplier against ALL Infantry is way larger than even Royal Guard Skirms get.

This is precisely why you struggle as Swedes, a civ everyone knows is OP.

96

Dude u r just newbie , u don’t even know what is skirmishers . Swedon has no skirmishers , leather cannons are just weaker version of normal cannons ,

Dev said wrong , they might have intention to make like skirmishers but failed .

Only way to kill heavy infantry with swedon is , caroleans and horse Art .

And don’t make people laugh by saying leather has multiplier vs all infantry ??? Seriously , so does falconat , so does , horse art , so does flaming arrow , so does light caonns every art have multiplier vs infantry except mortors and culv , so according to u falconets are skirmishers , horse art are skirmishers . Lmaoooo.

A unit is skirmishers replacement if it has bonus vs heavy infantry.

97

Yes, you are.
I have hundreds of hours in the game, however.

Literal known fact aknowledged by everyone except VagrantBloom811, that Leather Cannons are Skirmioshers, just like Abus Guns.

Insult me some more, though, and show how little you know both about this game’s balance and design…

Of course! You know more than the developers!

98

Ofc player knows better , ur hours of experience is nothing for years of experience . And good thing for accepting that u r newbie

First of all define difference between skirmishers and artillary ? Then say anything more that sounds like newbie

99

When someone knows what the actual counter to Caroleans is, please post it here, whether is is one unit or two units in combination

100

Please stay on the subject of balance for Caroleans.

101

Skirmishers and artillary are the counters to caroleans

102

i won to asweden using brits.
on iv age when caroleans change to distance resitance use husars with the 40% more hitpoints and also a card that gives them 15% more hitpoints (660hp total aprox) you will kill them easily liek strelets or skimirshers. And to kill cav i used muskets because i had cannons too to damage even more to caroleans.

on previous ages when caroleans are meele resistance is more difficult because swedens use caroleans and cannons, so i used longbows and culeverin, cannon and husar. Longbows are very good but you have to have the card that gives to longbow more distance and upgrade them. Also you have to run of caroleans 8 sec speed boost, i ddint know sweden had husars but also you have to have muskets to kill husars or have dragons, its a little difficult but using lonbgow helps but you have to use husars to kill husars and muskets to kill husar. Longbow are good because they have a very long range, specially if you have walls

of course all this is on the new balances hotfix for caroleans

103

Swedon has the tankiest husser in whole game , with 3 cards giving them hp boost , arround 60% ho boosr from cards , more than brit hussers

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104

as a starter, why do carroleans have 13 range while all other heavy infatry 12. ports need a special 900 food extra age up where they nee to give up other important boost at a pivotal point of the game. sweeds unit just gets it as a bonus additionally to faster movespeed, and extremly high base damaga, ah and the charge ability.

The unit just is too laoded with extras:

  1. 17 range on a muskeeter type unit is crazy, base range of 13 is already great, its overkill. They are supposted to become dragons for sweden as sated by devs but they dont come with any of dragons weaknesses, like weak meele or costing 2 pop and having low hp per pop, quite the contrary for carolleans actually.
  2. they are cheaper than ashigaru or sepos or janiisary but outclass them easily
  3. they can get ranged resist which in combination with the 17 range lets them compete with skirms 1v1 easily since they got so much more HP than skirms and not weak cav and can tank cannons better too.
  4. they are fast and they can charge, which no other musk type unit can
  5. they have incredible hand damage which more than compesates their lower cav meele multilier, and they shoot faster than other gunpowder units which makes their damage per shot appear worse than it actually is.
  6. they can counter cavalry from range! like fuisilier. Another bonus no other standard musk has.
  7. they got great card to boost them: max stats they can have 375 HP which is the same as the max a portuguese musk can get, but with all the other bonus mentioned in 1-6 on top!

I assume normally when designing a new musk type unit devs should have taken the staard musketier and added around 2 special perks to it but offset them by some drawbacks.

But This unit has 7 perks and the only drawbacks are overcompesated leaving it virtually the best unit in the game by far margin.

  1. Change the base hand damage from 19 to 16, still highrer then the next highest musk type which should be janiisary, and janissary cost more and also hav lower cav multiplier.
  2. Lower its base health to 135 from 150, since this unit got 1 extra range it can be a bit more fragile.
  3. increase the cav multiplier in meele if necessary to the standrad of other musks
  4. change the range incresaing card to also give a 0.8% multiplier against infatry, so the unit doesnt turn into an ultra skirm goon all in one monster.
  5. change the armor card to also increae the food from 60 to 70 (not sure on this point actually)
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