It’s just a bit faster than foot archers even with the UT researched (0.9775 speed vs 0.96 for archers).
If you can catch archers (or infantry) which have minuscule hitboxes with mangonel I don’t see why you can’t catch Hussite Wagons which have the same hitbox (apparently) of a Korean War Wagon.
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yeah, but it’s pretty easy to snipe mangos with these things, thx to their high attack
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I think they’re equal, you need 3 full hit to kill a Mangonel with Hussite Wagon, but you barely need 3 to kill it with a Mangonel (barely meaning 2 full hits should drop the Wagon to like 20 HP).
Since they added a new armor class for the Wagon maybe they can raise the bonus damage the mangonel line does to it to ensure that a Mangonel can outright kill a Wagon with just 2 full shots, if the speed seems too much dropping the base to 0.8 might suffice (making it 0.05 slower than foot archers even with UT).
I 100% agree. Crossbow, handcannon, wagon + Hufnice will soffice for them.
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Sorry to say, but I think Poles are way more OP than bohemians.
Bohemians seem strong, but I don’t know if it’s enough to call them OP and demand a nerf.
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I don’t think Poles are OP, just weird to play and great at Castle Age, nothing more to say about them
About Bohemians being OP, I’m not entirely sure:
-Swap castle techs and the food cost in Monasteries should be higher than the gold cost
-Work around the mining techs, maybe it is too much to give them all of them
-Check the HW and nerf/buff where it need it
Too earlier to tell TBH
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Are trash monks really that useful in imperial age?
When I saw heavy monk usage it was almost always in castle age, and the strength of it relied on fast castle without a castle, basically rush to castle age for monks+mangonel, not rush to castle age for castle and monks, unless it was fast imperial for monks+trebs, but fast imperial strats don’t have too good food economy as far as I know.
In imperial age, expecially in team games, isn’t it difficult to micromanage monks against large armies?
yeah, you’re usually pretty careful not to lose monks unnecessarily. But when you have FU monks that cost only food? You can get away with absolutely crazy things.
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Agree. But I don’t know, I saw pros with crazy monk micro… It could potentially be OP, but very likely not.
Don’t know what apm you would need to micro 40 monks at a time inside your trash war comp. And how likely they get shredded by hussars…
I didn’t wanted to state this too early because you never know… Maybe Viper will come up with that insane monk micro once and let us look like silly idiots…
Edit: How many monks you need to defend against a halb/ram push by only converting the rams? Maybe you don’t even need 40 monks, maybe 20 are enough at that stage of the game to be unpushable. This could indeed possibly be OP.
You say 20 monks are better than 25 light cav (equal resource cost) to kill just the rams? To convert rams afaik the monk should be in melee range right?
I suck horribly at monk micro, and against the AI is almost pointless, but I’m very sceptical on trash monks being OP as someone said.
I might be horribly wrong, time will tell.
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I don’t know. But the concept of halb/siege is that the halb shred all cavalry to pieces.
So Monks actually seem very good to stop that kind of push.
Also potentially using the rams afterwards for your own offense could be neat.
But I don’t have experience with that sit, it usually doesn’t happen right now.
I just theorize a bit how this bonus could possibly play out in a realistic scenario.
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Fair point, we’ll see. Pros will obviously be the first to test it at “extreme” levels.
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If think removing either block printing for range, or the one that only one monk needs to regen (or maybe removing then tech that allows siege converting) is necessary.
Trash monks are way too good at countering ranged siege units in imp. It’s a bit unfair.
Other civs need either their own siege or mass cavalry which needs to get into meele.
Only bohemians have a 12 range trash answer.
Adding any one of these 3 techs should do the trick to make sure it’s not op.
I would favour removing block printing so these trashy boys are still cheap but need to risk getting into 9 so onager can get a shot of at least and BBC can still outrage them.
Trash monks are also by far the best counter to high hp UU like war Elefant, hussite wagons, war wagons, Elefant archers or ballista elegant rendering these units basically useless.
Removing the tech that allow only one monk to regen would ensure bohemians would need to invest a lot of micro atleast to trash hard counter these very chonky units. Would also be a viable nerf
mmmh, I think all the civ revolves around the strong monastery and gunpowder, removing multiple monastery techs doesn’t seem right. One might be doable, but not more (like Burmese only lack Heresy).
If the trash monk is deemed too overpowered after good testing I see a couple of other alternatives than removing monastery techs, they can be combined together (not necessarily all of them):
- convert the gold cost into food only for techs, but lower the UT cost.
- increase the food cost of the monk to X.
- decrease the gold cost of monks to Y, or make it Y gold Y food.
you realize that Monks need to stand next to the siege unit if it’s a ram or Treb specifically right? As for countering Onager line, you can not use it, it’s super weak on Arabia anyway and on closed maps, good riddance if there is a civ that counters those claustrophobic pushes.
Ram and Trebs are the only things you really need to push positions, I guess you could make a case for them being go vs BBC but even then it’s 12 range vs 12 range and you can send some scouting units before you send the BBC in, as you should be doing anyway.
Maybe it’s not OP for open maps or against people that thinks this game is only for rushing and micro managing <200 pop. For those who like closed maps and longer games with massed units, they are clearly OP.
The Hussite Wagon has 10 pierce armor (a Huskral tank), 20ap, 250hp and protect the units behind.
Someone said about cavalry cost effectiveness, well they have one of the best halbs in the entire game (maybe the best). Other one said about mangonels-line, well they have the best cannons in the entire game also.
I really want to see someone countering a combo with HW, hand canonners, halbs, cannons and an ARMY of fully upgraded monks.
Gold is a problem? 80% faster markets, mining techs free and villagers 15% faster with Fervor tech. Make 100 trade carts in a 300 pop game and it’s game over.
Again, they probably suck in 1v1, rushing and low pop games. But I found interesting people can’t stand the pressure of long games with massed armies and think this game is only about micro managing “squads” not armies.
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Well you mentioned 300 pop games so that isn’t a standard ranked game, are lobby games and balance isn’t targetted here. is mostly for high level games.
Not target by who? The forum, the players, the developers, Microsoft? I have played this game since it’s first release and it was all about lobbies and scenarios before. Ranked games are a new feature and no one can call it “high level” ignoring 20 years of playing. If the balance only targets this type of game, well, then remove lobby and other kinds of matches. Otherwise it’s going to be like aoe3, just play with Japs and it’s over.
PS.: this game survived +20 years only because there are many ways of playing it.
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Because you can’t balance around people who don’t know to play properly, Goths are OP at 800 elo because players just boom and turtle until imperial, when Goths starts to be dangerous as hell, or units like War elephant and Teutonic Knight, both looking OP as well for those games, but once you see 2k games, all those start to become a joke if not a meme or in need of a buff.
The game is balanced arounf 200 pop standard start standard resources.
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