New Civ Concept：Swiss

[Seicing]

This is someone else’s idea, I’m just a proxy…

“Edelweiss takes root in the tough cold place, and so do hard-to-attack towns among the mountains and lakes of the Alps, which are made up of shepherds and peasants. Pick up the pikes and halberds to defend your homeland, and witness the birth of the most significant confederacy in Central Europe. The Swiss unique units are Reislaeufers, a kind of the most tenacious and disciplined mercenaries on the continent.”

Swiss
Infantry civilization (Central Europe)

• Spearman-line have +1 attack range
• Units created at Town Centers and Barracks can regenerate 4 hit points per minute in Dark, 6 in Feudal, 8 in Castle, 10 in Imperial Age
• Building each new Town Center can get 50 wood, food from Castle Age
• Researching Coinage and Banking can get 150 gold from each existing Town Center
  (maximum 4, 6)
• The boost of Conscription will be doubled
• Mansonry and Architecture are free

Unique Unit: Reislaeufer (effective ranged infantry) (Price to Elite: 900F, 750G)

Unique Techs:

• Tagsatzung (Improve your Town Centers and allow your ally to create Reislaeufers at Town Centers) (Price: 500W, 250G)
• Pike Square (Spearmen and Reislaeufers have a higher attack and defense) (Price: 600F, 300G)

Team Bonus: Houses, Lumber Camps, Mills, Mining Camps and Palisade Walls can be built 66% faster

Techs Tree

Reislaeufer STAT (Ordinary/Elite):
HP: 60/75
Attack: 8/9 [Melee]
Melee Armor: 1/2
Pierce Armor: 2/3
Range: 1
Rate of Fire: 2
Speed: 1.1/1.2
Line of Sight: 3/5
Search Radius: 4
[Armor Classes]
Infantry (+10)
Unique Unit
Spearsman (+3)
Mercenary (Condottiero now) (0/+2)
[Attack Bonuses]
+6/+10 vs. Cavalry
+8/+16 vs. War elephant
+4/+8 vs. Camel
+4/+6 vs. Ship
+4/+6 vs. Ram
+3/+4 vs. Infantry
+2 vs. Building
+2 vs. Eagle Warrior
+1/+2 vs. Stone Defense
Training Time: 15s (Castle); 25s (Town Center)
Price: 30F, 60G (Castle); 90G (Town Center)

Further description of Unique Techs:
[Tagsatzung]
Your Town Centers work 25% faster, +5 attack and +3 LOS (without range). Your ally can train Reislaeufer at Town Center, with requires more gold but without food. Once you upgraded your Reislaeufer to Elite, Reislaeufer of your ally will also become Elite.
[Pike Square]
Reislaeufer +1/+1 armor; Spearsman-line +1 melee armor, +4 Spearsman armor to resist damage bonus and +3 attack bonus to Infantry

[MatCauthon3]

I think your uu is probably too strong.

Its got range and bonuses vs melee units, and its speed combined with 8 pa make it a nightmare for archers too.

Combine this with the comparative ease of massing them up could make them problematic.

[Seicing]

According to the designer’s idea, this is a Huskarl-like with anti-melee ability. Considering that this civilization had almost no economy buff before the Castle Age, and the cost and productivity limitations of Castle uu, they may not be as versatile as the stats shows

[MatCauthon3]

@Seicing

According to the designer’s idea, this is a Huskarl-like with anti-melee ability

Yeah, but whats the units weakness?
It beats trash, and has bonuses vs infantry and cavalry, and eith 8 pa and 1.32 speed it isnt going to be weak against archers.

@Seicing

Considering that this civilization had almost no economy buff before the Castle Age

Which is about the civs only weakness.

@Seicing

and the cost and productivity limitations of Castle uu, they may not be as versatile as the stats shows

Except it can also be produced at town centers.

I struggle to find a way to effectively kill this unit.
Huskarls are at least held back by low melee armor, attack and only 1.05 base speed

This unit is faster, has range, and 4 more melee armor, as well as bonuses vs infantry and cavalry. Heck it even has +10 infantry armor so even hand cannons and cataphracts arent as good. Heck it ecen has bonuses vs stone buildings, which no other infantry has.

This leaves the unit with no realistic counter.

[LovelierRex7689]

Looks like a Goths-based civ with some features from Poles, Byzantines, Spanish, Persians and even former Vietnamese, etc. There are bonuses on Spearsman-line and Reisläufer that are clearly aimed at the confrontation of Swiss with Teutons and Burgundians.

In fact, it’s very similar to a mod I designed before and I have ignored it for more than half a year. It may be one of my friends provided an adapted version. This Swiss technology tree have adopted some of my original designs and strengthened the unique unit.

[TommoChocolate]

@MatCauthon3

Yeah, but whats the units weakness?

Hand Cannoneer, Slinger, and maybe Cataphract (it’s always hard to tell with Cataphracts) – so in Castle Age Swiss can only be beaten by Bohemians, Incas, and maybe Byzantines.

[MatCauthon3]

@TommoChocolate

Hand Cannoneer, Slinger, and maybe Cataphract

Slingers will do a whopping 8 damage.
Given this units 1.32 speed i dont think its a good answer.
Hand cannons will do 9 damage a shot. Same thing.

Cataphracts probably a good answer. But then again thats just 1 civ

[LovelierRex7689]

Yeah, but whats the units weakness?
It beats trash, and has bonuses vs infantry and cavalry, and eith 8 pa and 1.32 speed it isnt going to be weak against archers.

As a possible original designer, I set the speed of Reisläufer to be 1.05 (In order to make it in an easier way, I used Huskarl as the base, and then I didn’t consider setting a new speed). I examined this new tech tree and found that it defined Reisläufer as a unit between Eagle warriors and Knights. It reverses the food & gold cost I set before.

Which is about the civs only weakness.

It may also be the most fatal weakness in the match, since the fighting will begin in the Feudal and even Dark Age.

Except it can also be produced at town centers.

500W, 250G may be too expensive in the Castle Age if you are facing the risk that the enemy is ready to concentrate their forces on your base. I prefer it to be a tech which plays a role in team games.

I struggle to find a way to effectively kill this unit.

Huskarls are at least held back by low melee armor, attack and only 1.05 base speed

This unit is faster, has range, and 4 more melee armor, as well as bonuses vs infantry and cavalry. Heck it even has +10 infantry armor so even hand cannons and cataphracts arent as good. Heck it ecen has bonuses vs stone buildings, which no other infantry has.

This leaves the unit with no realistic counter.

Remember that Reisläufer have the armor classes of Condottiero and Spearman (Although the latter has enough anti-damage bonus to absorb most of them before the enemy research the Parthian Tactics). In this respect, they could only resist the hand cannoner, just like their Italian colleagues.

The original intention of my design is to make it a primary unit that can be used for both attack and defense. The speed change surprised me a little (perhaps the adapter referred to Ghulam), but I think the adjustment of training cost is a nice idea. It can not only avoid Reisläufer being too much like Kamayuk, but also bring new possibilities for economic deployment. If this is a “concept” rather than the actual mod design, I would think that the range of Reisläufer can be replaced by more distinctive mechanisms, such as blocking melee attacks or immune charging.

By the way, the Swiss I designed did not have Gold Shaft Mining and Siege Engineers, This is another reason why I set such a strong UU. (except for faster speed and reverse training cost, the other stats should come from my mod. Unfortunately, the data mod has been invalid for a long time)

[MatCauthon3]

@LovelierRex7689

It may also be the most fatal weakness in the match, since the fighting will begin in the Feudal and even Dark Age

Eh, weak in feudal but no worse then say magyars.
Except unlike magyars they have a uu that counters just about everything.

@LovelierRex7689

Remember that Reisläufer have the armor classes of Condottiero and Spearman (Although the latter has enough anti-damage bonus to absorb most of them before the enemy research the Parthian Tactics)

So civs with parth tactics have a better answer then most

Condo armor class mainly means jags and cataphracts do well against it, but it can run from jags.

@LovelierRex7689

By the way, the Swiss I designed did not have Gold Shaft Mining and Siege Engineers, This is another reason why I set such a strong UU.

Yours sounds more balanced. Slower speed means it cant really force engagements as hard, nor can it close the gap with archers and from earlier post has less armor.

Also, while swapping the costs means it can actually be more effectively massed in castle age due to low food cost not cutting into your eco boom

The only realistic answer i see to this is cataphracts.

It has pa, speed, and range to beat archers.
It has armor, speed, range, and decent attack and bonus damage vs most melee units.

Weak eco in the early game does not mean its acceptable to have a uu that cant be countered.

[AllergicTable49]

@Seicing

Spearman-line have +1 attack range

Simplistic, I like it, might be a little bit Kamayukish, feels bad for Incas, which are already meh.

@Seicing

Units created at Town Centers and Barracks can regenerate 4 hit points per minute in Dark, 6 in Feudal, 8 in Castle, 10 in Imperial Age

I’d make it apply to Barracks only, Poles already have this useless bonus of vills regen. I’d also increase the values, we’re talking about low mobility, low survivability units, 8/12/16/20 per Age.
20 HP Regen for a Champion means half the amount of Berserk, plus less potential usage of this bonus, since Champ is much slower.

@Seicing

• Building each new Town Center can get 50 wood, food from Castle Age
• Researching Coinage and Banking can get 150 gold from each existing Town Center
  (maximum 4, 6)

The first one is solid.
The second one however, reminds me of First Crusade.
The meta is already inflated with mass TCs nature, the more TCs one has the more boring the game becomes, we cant encourage this habit when we design a civ.

@Seicing

Mansonry and Architecture are free

You cant have this. Same reason you cant have a civ with free:
Squires (Celts), Husbandry (Cumans), Arson (Goths), Bloodlines (Franks), etc…

Byzantines already have this exact bonus, it doesnt have to be as directly done as this one, but it’s absolutely the same. Cant be implemented.

@Seicing

The boost of Conscription will be doubled

Feels like Vietnamese, you basically get free Conscription after you buy the first one?
Why not:
Can research Conscription twice

@Seicing

Team Bonus: Houses, Lumber Camps, Mills, Mining Camps and Palisade Walls can be built 66% faster

Best Team Bonus in the game. Must be nerfed. I’d remove Houses and Palisade from the list.

@Seicing

Tagsatzung (Improve your Town Centers

Same boring concept of Defensive-Castles into a mass TC boom, just like recently designed Sicilians and Poles. That’s defenitely not what we want in a new civ.

@Seicing

Pike Square (Spearmen and Reislaeufers have a higher attack and defense) (Price: 600F, 300G)

That’s where you murdered the Kamayuk. You cant let them share the 1 Range feature and also let them have the armor resistace (Kamayuk is a Spearline type of unit that doesnt have this Armor type) and also the Armor bonus that only Kamayuks have.

You couldn’t accept the fact this civ already have FU Halbs with Regen and Range bonus, you actually wanted more, that’s not too elegant and definitely not well designed considering how butchered Kamayuks are now.

Both UT’s need a change.
Overall seems like a boomy civ with access to all units in the game, no reason to really make Infantry. You’ve made an UU that is way too similar to the unique Halb they have, if this wasn’t enough to murder Kamayuk.

Some nice ideas that are overwhelmed by plenty of bad ideas, and a bad conceptual design, sorry.

[TommoChocolate]

@MatCauthon3

Slingers will do a whopping 8 damage.
Given this units 1.32 speed i dont think its a good answer.
Hand cannons will do 9 damage a shot. Same thing.

Hmmm, presumably I don’t understand how damage calculations work… I make it 13 damage for the Slinger (4 base damage plus 11 bonus damage, minus 2 pierce armour – upgrades will cancel each other out here) and 24 for Hand Cannoneer (17 base damage plus 11 bonus damage, minus 4 pierce armour including the bonus from Chain Mail). What did I do wrong?

(Of course, it doesn’t matter – a unit that’s only countered by three civs is not really better than a unit only countered by one civ.)

[LovelierRex7689]

@MatCauthon3

Eh, weak in feudal but no worse then say magyars.
Except unlike magyars they have a uu that counters just about everything.

Trust me, bro. If Magyar Huszars get +1 range or can be trained in the stables, they also can “counter just about everything”. Actually I also feel tired to make Reisläufer strong and special by just increasing the range, and yet AGE doesn’t allow me to use more interesting mechanisms.

As for who’s worse in Feudal Age, it depends on what tactics the enemy adopted to start the battle. But I just found that the Swiss team bonus has also been enhanced (my original setting is 50% faster, which means that the construction time is 33% shorter), so I think that maybe it improves the early survivability of the Swiss.

@MatCauthon3

Condo armor class mainly means jags and cataphracts do well against it, but it can run from jags.

I remember the speed of Condo is also 1.2, so the problem of Reisläufer to be overpowered may still be the range.

@MatCauthon3

The only realistic answer i see to this is cataphracts.

Maybe my micro is too novice, when I manipulate a group of Reisläufers, I will be targeted miserably by ranged siege weapons (or they should have been in this situation as foot units). I think this may be one of the weaknesses.

In combination with other actual combat experience, I think the role of 1 range is the overlapping attack, and at least Mamlukes can carry out the hit-and-run. In the case of a small number of Reisläufer, it’s not very difficult for infantry like Samurais to solve them.

@MatCauthon3

It has pa, speed, and range to beat archers.
It has armor, speed, range, and decent attack and bonus damage vs most melee units.

Weak eco in the early game does not mean its acceptable to have a uu that cant be countered.

In conclusion, this is a very useful message for me. Maybe you can balance this unit in terms of price, range and defense. I will also find out the guy who came up with this adapted tech tree and ask him what he thinks. I haven’t used AGE for months, so I also want to see if I can realize some of the ideas I haven’t used.

[MatCauthon3]

@TommoChocolate

I make it 13 damage for the Slinger (4 base damage plus 11 bonus damage, minus 2 pierce armour – upgrades will cancel each other out here) and 24 for Hand Cannoneer (17 base damage plus 11 bonus damage, minus 4 pierce armour including the bonus from Chain Mail). What did I do wrong?

They have +10 infantry armor. Also i wss doing imp damage not castle.

[MatCauthon3]

@LovelierRex7689

Trust me, bro. If Magyar Huszars get +1 range or can be trained in the stables, they also can “counter just about everything”.

Not really, pikes and halbs would srill do reasonably well, as would heavy cavalry.

@LovelierRex7689

I remember the speed of Condo is also 1.2, so the problem of Reisläufer to be overpowered may still be the range

Condos don’t have bonus damage vs infantry, cavalry, nor do they have 6/8 armor fully upgraded.

@LovelierRex7689

Maybe my micro is too novice, when I manipulate a group of Reisläufers, I will be targeted miserably by ranged siege weapons (or they should have been in this situation as foot units). I think this may be one of the weaknesses.

They move at 1.32 speed with squires. Roughly the same as teuton paladins. Siege isnt gonna be that great.

[TungstenBoar]

@Seicing

Spearman-line have +1 attack range

This is an strong and flavourful bonus, but (in theory) having FU halbs with it seems a bit too much. Would recomend to remove the

@Seicing

• Units created at Town Centers and Barracks can regenerate 4 hit points per minute in Dark, 6 in Feudal, 8 in Castle, 10 in Imperial Age

Too close to Poland imo. I personally would replace it. The infantry bonus is good, but unnecessary I believe.

@Seicing

Building each new Town Center can get 50 wood, food from Castle Age

A bit too small

@Seicing

Researching Coinage and Banking can get 150 gold from each existing Town Center
(maximum 4, 6)

This one is kinda niche but fun. Still I believe you could remove some bonuses

@Seicing

The boost of Conscription will be doubled

Maybe a bit too good (its basically almost chivalry for everything) but sure. Would prefer to replace the castle age UT with something like “All buildings work 20% faster” since they have too many bonuses as I said before

@Seicing

Mansonry and Architecture are free

Seems good

@Seicing

Tagsatzung (Improve your Town Centers and allow your ally to create Reislaeufers at Town Centers) (Price: 500W, 250G)

I like the stronger TCs but the other part is kinda lame imo

@Seicing

Pike Square (Spearmen and Reislaeufers have a higher attack and defense) (Price: 600F, 300G)

THey dont need this. Extra range is already super good

@Seicing

Reislaeufer STAT (Ordinary/Elite):

This unit is great, prob way too strong in fact

Im also not a fan of sharing castle unique units with the allies

@Seicing

Team Bonus: Houses, Lumber Camps, Mills, Mining Camps and Palisade Walls can be built 66% faster

Eh way too good for walling.

[LovelierRex7689]

@AllergicTable49

Some nice ideas that are overwhelmed by plenty of bad ideas, and a bad conceptual design, sorry.

Considering that neither of the two UTs is actually my original design, with Town Center is my favorite building and I think that TC and the Swiss will be a suitable match in a very personal way, I’m glad to accept your criticism to the point. LOL

@AllergicTable49

Simplistic, I like it, might be a little bit Kamayukish, feels bad for Incas, which are already meh.

This feature is from the Helvetics of Realms, I’m just a borrower. Realms was a well-known early MOD with the theme of custom civs, including many civs that had become official today, like the Dravidians. And yet I really think it will be a good feature for the in-game and historical Swiss.

@AllergicTable49

I’d make it apply to Barracks only, Poles already have this useless bonus of vills regen. I’d also increase the values, we’re talking about low mobility, low survivability units, 8/12/16/20 per Age.
20 HP Regen for a Champion means half the amount of Berserk, plus less potential usage of this bonus, since Champ is much slower.

Actually I have been designing Swiss civ since 2018. Current Swiss or previous Swiss (The MOD version I released last year. I don’t know who adapted this version in the topic and I think it’s not Seicing) is the result of some compromises made after my own designs have been continuously adopted by other official civs.

“Villagers and infantry (except UU) can regenerate HP” is just one of them. The value you sincerely suggested is exactly what I was thinking before. Maybe I will adopt this idea after consciously avoiding the the use of unnecessary Town Centers.

The Poles also took my other idea, Baserri, a unique building designed for the Basques. (The effect was assumed to be that the player can get gold by dropping certain food to the building. It’s also a large mill that can provide five pop cap.)

@AllergicTable49

You cant have this. Same reason you cant have a civ with free:
Squires (Celts), Husbandry (Cumans), Arson (Goths), Bloodlines (Franks), etc…

Byzantines already have this exact bonus, it doesnt have to be as directly done as this one, but it’s absolutely the same. Cant be implemented.

This is also one of the features that I think should be adjusted first. I don’t have a better idea to reflect the wisdom of the Swiss in Alpine architecture, except for team bonus. Maybe just remove it.

@AllergicTable49

Feels like Vietnamese, you basically get free Conscription after you buy the first one?
Why not:
Can research Conscription twice

If we only for faster training to spend double resources, it would be unreasonable to be seen as a pure bonus. But I certainly agree with what you said about homogenization. I have an alternative plan is to advance Conscription to the Castle Age.

@AllergicTable49

Both UT’s need a change.
Overall seems like a boomy civ with access to all units in the game, no reason to really make Infantry. You’ve made an UU that is way too similar to the unique Halb they have, if this wasn’t enough to murder Kamayuk.

The two UTs should indeed be reset, But I have no idea now. If you have any precious advice, please don’t hesitate to give me advice.
[Tagsatzung - Wikipedia]
[Pike square - Wikipedia]
By the way, it seems that some of my thoughts on Reisläufer can only remain hypothetical. Therefore I can’t test it in the game.
Thanks again for all your comments.

[xPizzaSamuraixD]

I don’t like the design and the concept behind it. But I think these parts have potential:

@Seicing

Building each new Town Center can get 50 wood, food from Castle Age

@Seicing

[Tagsatzung]
Your Town Centers work 25% faster, +5 attack and +3 LOS (without range).

@Seicing

[Pike Square]
Reislaeufer +1/+1 armor; Spearsman-line +1 melee armor, +4 Spearsman armor to resist damage bonus and +3 attack bonus to Infantry

Maybe if you increase or decrease some numbers and combine some effects, then I think these could be fun.

On the other hand, this bonus is fine:

@Seicing

Mansonry and Architecture are free

Yup, pretty decent bonus. But since you want the special pike uu to be trained from tcs. How about you keep your uu a castle unit only, and combine this bonus with that effect? A new bonus that takes the opposite route. Something like: they can’t research mansonry and architecture, but every destroyed building spawns a lesser version of the uu. One strategy could be building forward an outpost to spy on your opponent. And the opponent will send his scout to destroy the outpost then BAM a small spike spawns to attack and weaken the scout.

[AllergicTable49]

@LovelierRex7689

And yet I really think it will be a good feature for the in-game and historical Swiss.

I do think that +1 range for the Spearline is a good idea. I didnt say otherwise, despite the fact it’s not too unique. The problem was that overkill moment, where you wanted to turn Swiss into the perfect-Halb-civ, by making the Spearline basically a Kamayuk.
This +1 range was enough to make Swiss an extremely unique civ at every single stage of the game, I remind you the potential of 1 range, it bypass quickwalls, the meta would be forward Barracks with this civ, with enough micro I can easily see this one makes every Drush a nightmare for the opponent.
Besides this early game feature, it increases the damage output of Pikes and Halbs dramatically, since these units have low attack speed, and many times they end up doing just 2 or less hits before they die, combine it with the poor melee pathing and you end up with a bonus that can be translated to 33% extra damage output, similarly to Japanese.
This civ does not need any other Spearline gimmicks, it’s more than enough.

@LovelierRex7689

Actually I have been designing Swiss civ since 2018.

It doesnt matter who came up with the idea of regenerating-HP vills, devs already let Poles have it, therefore no other civ can have something this similar, sadly devs poorly implemented this feature, but that’s a discussion for another day.

@LovelierRex7689

The Poles also took my other idea, Baserri, a unique building designed for the Basques. (The effect was assumed to be that the player can get gold by dropping certain food to the building. It’s also a large mill that can provide five pop cap.)

This is such an awesome design, however the fact it’s limited to Stone only it’s still balancable, since Stone is heavily exhaustible AND far from being an essential res to gather. With Food/Wood it’ll be very hard to balance, will end up being a free relic income with no tactical decision making.
So in this one I give devs the credit! (though Poles are still kinda meh design ,sorry devs)

@LovelierRex7689

This is also one of the features that I think should be adjusted first. I don’t have a better idea to reflect the wisdom of the Swiss in Alpine architecture, except for team bonus. Maybe just remove it.

I get the idea of being historically right, but sometimes justice cant be made, the Chinese culture has invented so many stuff, same goes for the Britons, they’re known for so much. Yet only few is being properly represented in the actual civ’s tech tree / bonuses.

Either a new building bonus. (we have very few left, armor?, regen?, repair rate?) or rather just none.

@LovelierRex7689

If we only for faster training to spend double resources, it would be unreasonable to be seen as a pure bonus. But I certainly agree with what you said about homogenization. I have an alternative plan is to advance Conscription to the Castle Age.

Fair enough, I personally think that Conscription with double the effect is way too much anyways.
Conscription is Castle Age is solid, however still feels a little Vietnamese to me. The overall specification over this niche tech. How about an alternative description:

Imperial techs in the Castle are also available in the Castle Age

All of them. Hoarding and Sappers (which won’t make it OP by any mean) Conscription (what you originally wanted to do) Spies (none really cares) and lastly your Imperial UT.
Your job would be as a designer to make this tech expensive enough to make it too luxurious for this early age and therefore balancing the game a little bit more.

Let me know what you think of this one.

@LovelierRex7689

Thanks again for all your comments.

Thank you for sharing!