I think you make it intentionally convoluted so it’s hard to make a point.
Idk exactly what you want to achieve but for me this unit looks like it has basically no real counter except siege and yes I think that is a problem.
And I haven’t seen any reasoning from you so far that would deny that impression.
It’s true that with the lack of the last archer armor upgrade it would fall of in imp a bit. But I don’t think this would matter too much.
Like the idea, but it will probably be too strong in some cases given how tightly calibrated units are with respect to ranged attacks. Don’t think we need Tarkans, Keshiks, or War Wagons with 9 Pierce Armor. Honestly I think something like +1 Melee Armor, or +5 HP would be much easier to balance, although even the melee armor would be quite strong in some cases.
I do agree with some others that this unit is probably too strong. The tipping point for me is the large number of unit types against which it has bonus damage. It will already be decent vs. infantry, but also has the speed either to micro, or just avoid bad engagements (e.g. vs. Huskarls), but then also has strong bonuses vs. Archers, and an anti-cav bonus that will be powerful in large numbers. Slower attack rate and minimum range temper this somewhat, especially against massed cav, but it still appears too strong for its gold cost, which is extremely low for a decent ranged unit at 25. The only units I see it not at least being decent against are Eagles and Huskarls, and Siege, which it can outrun.
Overall, I would probably remove the spearline bonus, tone the cav bonus down to 1/2, and add 10-15 to its gold cost. It will still be a powerful, fast anti-archer unit that is easy to micro and decent against most infantry, and still stronger vs. cav than a typical Skirmisher.
The issue with this comparison is that both of these units are countered fairly well by archerline, whereas the Luojuzi is specifically an archer counter that is also good against most infantry (due to its speed and micro potential) and decent against cav due to its bonus.
Again this proves that you don’t read. I’ve already listed several units that can counter the Luojuzi, yet you only focus on siege.
I don’t think the Luojuzi is OP. This unit would be hard countered by Eagles, Ghulams, Huskarls, Shrivamsha Riders, Tarkans, massed cav, and siege. And plus keep in mind that this civ doesn’t have access to Camel Riders and the Halb upgrade, so apart from the Luojuzi it really doesn’t have many other options at countering cav.
Agreed with your analysis on the Castle Age UT though, maybe it should be changed to +1 melee instead of +1 pierce.
Again, please read what I actually wrote in the thread and in my comments before responding, thanks.
About this, I think the Mongols should get an architecture set that can be shared with Huns and Cumans as well
The existence of counter units is one thing, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that the unit isn’t too strong of a generalist, or that it doesn’t provide too much utility for its (low) cost. If anything, I would compare it to the Urumi Swordsman - its existence doesn’t make the civ OP, but it’s arguably too good within its role, and it’s too loaded for me to think the design is great. Feel free to disagree, but that’s my 2 cents. It’s hard to be supremely confident in my conclusions, since there’s a lot about a unit that both designers and commenters can miss when they can’t actually play around with it, which is why I included playable scenarios with my first designs, so people could at least have a scenario-level understanding of the unit.
That’s certainly a good argument for giving them something to help with cav, but not necessarily the Luojuzi, which already carries a strong anti-archer and a decent anti-infantry role on its shoulders. If anything I would give the Raeu Tribesman some anti-cav bonuses, as it otherwise appears to be an extremely niche unit.
You’ll find that (if I’m going to bother responding) I always do. That doesn’t necessarily mean that you’ve successfully preempted all possible concerns, or that I agree with everything.
That’s certainly a good argument for giving them something to help with cav, but not necessarily the Luojuzi, which already carries a strong anti-archer and a decent anti-infantry role on its shoulders. If anything I would give the Raeu Tribesman some anti-cav bonuses, as it otherwise appears to be an extremely niche unit.
This suggestion does make some sense. So how about removing the +3 bonus against Spearman for the Luojuzi, making it a more dedicated anti-archer/anti-cav unit, and then give the Raeu Tribesman some anti-light cav bonus (not against all cavs, only against light cavs or the scout line)? Here’s what the result looks like (also decided to increase the gold cost of Luojuzi from 25 to 30)
Luojuzi Stats
Cost: 40 Wood 30 Gold
HP: 35 / 40 (elite)
Attack: 4 / 5 (elite) pierce
Attack bonuses:
+4 / +5 (elite) vs Archer
+3 vs Cavalry Archer
+2 / +3 (elite) vs Cavalry
Rate of fire: 3.05
Frame delay: 20
Range: 5
Minimum range: 1
Accuracy: 95%
Projectile speed: 7
Melee armor: 0 / 1 (elite)
Pierce armor: 4
Armor classes: Archer, Unique Unit
Speed: 1.2 (not affected by the civ bonus as it is a skirmisher)
Raeu Tribesman stats
Cost: 40 Food 20 Gold
HP: 60
Attack: 8 melee
Attack bonuses:
+3 vs Ship
+3 vs Fishing Ship
+2 vs Light Cavalry (the scout line)
+2 vs Eagle Warrior
+1 vs Standard Building
Rate of fire: 2.0 / 1.6 (on elevated and marshy terrains)
Melee armor: 1
Pierce armor: 3
Armor classes: Infantry, Unique Unit
Speed: 1.1
It’s hard to be supremely confident in my conclusions, since there’s a lot about a unit that both designers and commenters can miss when they can’t actually play around with it, which is why I included playable scenarios with my first designs, so people could at least have a scenario-level understanding of the unit.
The Youtube user MantisAoE has designed a unit for his Zapotec civ called the Owl Warrior, which is very similar in concept to the Luojuzi, being a fast skirm with a slight anti-cav bonus. You can watch this video to get a sense of how such a unit would look like and perform in a game (the stats of the Owl Warrior are shown at 5:52)
Definitely a couple steps in the right direction. Given the low base attack and lack of Elite Raeu, I would extend the bonus to all cav though, since even pikes are ~okayish vs. light cav line, but will struggle vs. heavy cavalry, so honestly I’d make it +6 or more vs. all cav. That way they’ll be slightly better vs. cav than a champion would, but slightly cheaper, (worse vs. other infantry). I might also suggest toning their pierce armor down to 2 in exchange for their increased anti-cav specialization (and since Luojuzi should already be very strong vs. Cav Archers).
Regarding the comparison, your unit just seems a bit stronger in some key areas. 5 Less HP, but 1 more base attack, 0.1 more speed, and more bonus damage vs. archers. Although with the changes to cost and frame delay, I don’t think it would be OP.
Regarding the comparison, your unit just seems a bit stronger in some key areas. 5 Less HP, but 1 more base attack, 0.1 more speed, and more bonus damage vs. archers. Although with the changes to cost and frame delay, I don’t think it would be OP.
I just realized a frame delay of 5 would be too fast maybe that’s the reason why people are calling it OP, so I changed it to 20, I guess that’ll make it much more balanced.
And I don’t want the Raeu Tribesman to be a faster version of Pikeman or Halberdier, I want them to keep their niche position, and also keep the civ’s weakness to cavalry. Giving them +6 vs Cavalry would be a bit overpowered, and they’ll lose their distinctiveness as a unique unit.
In fact, instead of making the Raeu Tribesman anti-cav, we could even give it a bonus against the Spearman line, cause I realized there’s currently no unit that does melee bonus damage to the Spearman armor class, so the Raeu Tribesman could fill this role.
Eh, I don’t think so. Normalizing for pikelines’ slower attack, even with +6, this unit will only be doing +9 vs cav on normal terrain, in the which time pikes will be doing +22 (and this is a gold unit). I also like the idea of this civ having several units with small anti-cav bonuses, but no unit that’s great vs cav (lacking Halb). But it’s your party.
Well with spearline’s low base attack and RoF, most units do fine vs. spears without any need for a bonus. I also think that if such a unit were to be created, it would be more synergistic with a cavalry civ, instead of countering a unit that your enemy won’t be much incentivized to make outside of trash wars. Guess it depends on how niche you want to make the unit though.
Unique units, by definition, would fill niche positions, if they aren’t then they won’t be considered unique anymore. Hence the reason why I don’t want to give the Raeu Tribesman a high anti-cav bonus cause that’ll just make them a faster version of Pikeman or Halberdier. I decided to change the stats of the 2 unique units again to make them more balanced.
Luojuzi Stats
Cost: 40 Wood 30 Gold
HP: 35 / 40 (elite)
Attack: 4 / 5 (elite) pierce
Attack bonuses:
+2 vs Archer
+3 vs Cavalry Archer
+2 / +3 (elite) vs Cavalry
+1 / +2 (elite) vs Camel
Rate of fire: 3.05
Frame delay: 20
Range: 5
Minimum range: 1
Accuracy: 95%
Projectile speed: 7
Melee armor: 0 / 1 (elite)
Pierce armor: 4
Armor classes: Archer, Unique Unit
Speed: 1.2 (not affected by the civ bonus as it is a skirmisher)
In fact looking back at this civ design now I realized that what SirWiedreich said indeed makes some sense. This civ lacks halbs and camels, and their only anti-cav unit apart from Pikeman is the Luojuzi, which is a Castle unit that is slow to train and to form into a large army, so they need something else to boost their anti-cav capabilities or else they would be extremely weak against any sort of cavalry rush. Hence a +6 anti-cav bonus for their unique infantry unit the Raeu Tribesman wouldn’t break the meta. That would make this unit akin to a stronger but slower version of the Eagle Warrior, though without the later’s anti-monk and anti-siege bonuses. And the +2 anti-spearman bonus isn’t that necessary cause even without the bonus the Raeu Tribesman would do reasonably well against the spears, and plus this civ does have access to Champions and Elite Skirms and they could counter spears quite well too. That’s why I decided to modify the stats of the Raeu Tribesman yet again. I also increased its gold cost from 20 to 25, decreased its PA from 3 to 2, and increased its speed from 1.1 to 1.15 to make this unit less niche and more viable.
Raeu Tribesman stats
Cost: 40 Food 25 Gold
HP: 60
Attack: 8 melee
Attack bonuses:
+6 vs Cavalry
+5 vs Camel
+3 vs Ship
+3 vs Fishing Ship
+2 vs Eagle Warrior
+1 vs Standard Building
Rate of fire: 2.0 / 1.6 (on elevated and marshy terrains)
Melee armor: 1
Pierce armor: 2
Armor classes: Infantry, Unique Unit
Speed: 1.15