New Civ concept: the Venetians

[DoctBaghi]

So from what I see the survey on condos is a bit divided, so I still haven’t decided (and consequently modified the original post) if they should get or not.

However I was thinking that if the venetians would get condos, those could be affected by an UT.

The Fanti da Mar UT (let’s call it marines from now on) gives +1 atk to archers in imp, this could be extended to condos too. The equipment of the marines in fact had was an xbow (later on an arquebus) and a schiavona (see the early post) that was a single hand sword, much like the used by the condos.

So my idea is that the imp UT could give +1 atk to both arbs and condos (they would have 11 base damage, still 2 less than the champ). Of course, to balance that out, the tech should have an high cost, I think that it may cost like logistica (one if the most expensive UT in the game) and that wau even if it would be a strong UT it would still be balanced.

Another idea would be to recicle the old schiavona UT that I wasn’t able to place (since most general infantry bonuses are already used). This UT would completely substitute the marines UT (archers would still be good, but not that good) and it would give to condos only +3 base damage (bringing them on pair with champs). Since this would affect just them, the cost can be lower than the marines UT

In both cases, they would lose the champ upgrade at the barracks, leaving them with just FU 2HS (and halbs of course).

I personally prefer the first solution, but let me know what you guys think of it, what would you prefer?

How venetians condos should be:

• Affected by the marines UT (+1 atk to condos and arbs)
• With their own UT (+3 atk to condos and nothing for arbs)
• Just generic FU condos (arbs get still +1)

(for those who voted for the venetians not having condos just ignore this survey)

Also, to give the Italians condos a bit more uniqueness you could remove the anti gunpowder armor and atk from the base condos, and give it to Italians as a hidden team bonus. Venetians condos that was wouldn’t be strong vs gunpowder, unless they are allied with the Italians. That because they would still share both the unit and the anti-gunpowder bonus to all allies, if one already have the condos, then they would share only the anti-gunpowder bonus.

• Yes this may be good for differentiate the 2 civs
• No a condos without the anti-gunpowder bonus is useless

[Parthnan]

@DarthPyro4335

Yay just what we need, more Italians

Did you just imply the Italians covered not only the Venetians, but also the rightfully added Sicilians?
Do you have any idea of the civilizations Italy deserves?
Italy deserves to have ALL of the following:

Italians
Venetians
Sicilians
Lombardians
Tuscans
Calabrians
Sardinians
Umbrians

Next I will see you deny the addition of the Bohemians, the Swiss, the Dutch or the Bavarians, which would just be both hilarious and pointless.

[iIiAGSPiIi]

Genoese you forgot!

[Parthnan]

Genoese are atleast in the game via the Genoese Crossbowmen. Otherwise Genoese are MORE THAN a well deserved spot.

[Mahazona]

We need papel states with swiss guards to complete the set.

[DoctBaghi]

Ok, since the discussion on the addition of condos is at a tie, I’ll add them as a side note to the first post, as a compromise, something to consider but not fundamental.

However, by what I see, I think that venetians should:

• get generic FU condos as a regional unit into the tech tree (with the anti-gunpowder effect)
• not sharing them with allies
• let them begin affected by fanti da mar UT for +1 atk with arbs
• lose the champs for compensate that (still have FU 2HS)

[DoctBaghi]

So here is how the venetians tech tree should look like.
Consider that the immages of the UU are wrong of course, and the names aren’t in english, but you can still recognise the units by the simbols.

Consider that venetians bonus make their archers/xbows, skirms and HC move 10/15/20% faster in feudal/castle/imp.
Other that that, ballistics and chemistry are 50% cheaper, so it’s another small help.
Also, the imp UT give +1 to arbs and condos. The latter would become a regional unit.
As you can see, it’s the foot soldiers, especially archers that are the real strengt of the venetians, and their faster archers compensate for their slow infantry (with the exception of the condo) and their terrible cav.

The rest of the infantry is generic, and of course they completely lack CA and EW.

As you can see, a scout rush is viable, especially since you don’t have to gahter gold to click castle age, and you can do a feudal with only food and wood. But it’s nothing to rely upon. Sooner you’ll want to transition into some other units.

Again, terrible cav armor, but infanty, archers, ships and buildings have all they need.

They are the only civ to entirely lack the scorps line. Other than that, they lack only the SO. They also have 50% cheaper SE, so it’s a bit of help.

Having the complete tech tree of the university allow them to really maximize their cheaper university bonus.

The monastery is nothig too bad or too good, they lack some useful techs, but they have the most important ones. Still, they have no bonus from them, just the castle age UT that give you 500 gold for each relic in your monasteries.

I uesed the turtle ship for represent the galeass (since they may be see similar…). As you can see, they completely lack the demo line (like koreans). This is to mitigate their faster working and bulding docks (50% less time) since with this strategy, they would play like the vikings, to faster have a group of galleys to snipe enemy ships. Only that unlike viking you lack demos to take care of enemy fire ships.
Also, their dock give them 5 pop each, this is helpful especially in the early game, since you usually buld a dock and then a house. This way, you can save that 25 wood (and use it for fishing ships) and send the vill immediately back to work (or to shore fish) saving working time.

Here I used the magyar hussar to represent the stradiot, since I picture them as similar. Conveniently, the magyars also have all the castle techs, same as is intended fot the venetians.

Lastly, here is their eco. They dont’t lack anything important, the only 2 upgrade that they lack are the last 2 minig upgrade, but they have everything that is important. This is to balance out a bit their lack of any eco bonus, besides starting with 250 gold.

[StereoQuasar163]

[Sylux1000]

I like the civs and the changes made since my last comment. Tbh I have two main concerns:

• is the water UU really useful? In which scenarios? Late game? Early game? Pop efficient replacement of galleys?
• condos as regional unit is not that great imo. Unless you give it to all “Italians”. This includes Sicilians (maybe, did they use mercenaries, @JonOli12?) and the old/current Italians that should be renamed anyway

But still, condos may remain as they are (a bad unit outside some specific use cases). Unique to the current italian civ, which at this point (introducing venice) should be renamed, as I have said…

[DoctBaghi]

@Sylux1000

I like the civs and the changes made since my last comment.

Thanks

@Sylux1000

is the water UU really useful? In which scenarios? Late game? Early game? Pop efficient replacement of galleys?

That’s the big flaw of the civ for now, it’s still a work in progress. For now is a water meatshield, with a spread damage similar to an organ gun. I have some idea and I’m also trying to put down some potential stats and costs, I’ll post them when I’ll a more solid picture…

@Sylux1000

condos as regional unit is not that great imo. Unless you give it to all “Italians”. This includes Sicilians

The condos aren’t still a definitive addition to the civs, bear in mind that if they would lose them, the only chance would be that they would get back the champ (onestly they could keep them both, it would be far from broken, but it was for given them a bit more spotlight to the condo).

However, the venetians did use foot soldiers mercenaries, in fact I was undecided between them (the schiavoni) and a cav one (the stradiots). The sicilians could use them too, during the Renaissance it was common for all states to use those mercenaries armies, from Venice and Genoa, to Milan and Florence, to the papal state and the normans in the south.

So I think that the sicilians could get the condos (if that don’t make them OP of course, we don’t know their tech tree…).

@Sylux1000

But still, condos may remain as they are (a bad unit outside some specific use cases).

Yeah but for venetians, with +1 atk and high speed may be a good unit to support their faster archers.

Also I think that the main reason why we don’t often see Italians condos is that it’s because they lack halbs, venetians instead do have halbs.

When you have halbs, you tend to have several barrack and gradually grab the several infantry upgrades. Now in that context, a condos switch is way easier and effective, because it counter some units that often is used vs halbs (other trash, siege, to some extent archers…).

@Sylux1000

which at this point (introducing venice) should be renamed, as I have said…

I agree to the change of the name Italians, I would suggest longobards. However, it should be pointed out that italians may also refer to the collection of North Italy states that comprised the Italian region of the franks empire first, and of the HRE later (which Venice was never a part of either the 2 empires), but it would still be an inaccurate name…

[DoctBaghi]

So now that bonuses and tech tree are fixed, I want to gradually dive in into the UT and UU, analyzing hypothetical costs, times, stats and various details.

Let’s start with the castle UT, so:

- The castle age UT: Fourt Crusade

Cost: 200f and 200w
Research time: 30s

When researched, it tributes to the player 500 gold for each relic that he possess.

Now, I know that this may seem OP, but usually the average player get about 1 or 2 relics for most of the game, so in average that make 1500 gold, wich isn’t that much when you consider that the civ don’t get any eco bonus.

The most similar tech present in the game probably is paper money. Now this may seem in comparison, the venetians’ UT may be OP, but first, this UT don’t affect allies, seconds, paper money always give back that 500g, while fourth crusade does only if you get relics.

Also you may criticize the cost, which is inferior to what it give back, which is 400 resources for a minimum of 500 (I mean, technically it’s 0, but if you research it before having any relic you don’t deserve gold), in fact, I thought of having it cost more than 500 of food and wood combined, to incourage players to get at least 2 relics.
But t it’s also true that potentially it can be entirely denied, and often you don’t get more than 1 relic, so the risk was that it would become a very underwhelming UT. This way at least even if you have just 1, it still helps you in your castle age struggle, or to help in super late game trash fights.

It was also suggest to put a cap on it, like the lithuanians bonus, but I don’t think it’s necessary. As I said, on average, you’ll get just 2/3 relics, it’s unlikely that you get all of 5 relics (unless you are the viper 11). There would be of course some maps that will be the exception, but even there most people probably won’t waste so many time on accumulate relics.

Still, if we really want to put a cap on it, it should be at 5 (so 2500 gold top), because if on a 1v1 a player is able to get all 5 relics, it should be rewarded.

[DoctBaghi]

Now let’s look at the second UT.

Imperial Age UT: Fante de Mar (or “Marines” in english)

Cost: 500w and 500g
Research time: 50s

Archer line (archers/xbow/arbs) and condos get +1 attack.

Now this is more straightforward than the castle age UT, it’s a direct upgrade on 2 of their units.

First of all, as you should know (if you read the first post) the condos addition is permanent, it’s more of an idea, but venetians could be fine even without it. If this would be the case, simply the UT would affect only archers. But in the case the do have condos, at least they would be different from Italians ones.

As for the overall UT, as you may see is more focused on the archers line. Now for the cost I used the magyars UT as an example, in fact, the total cost in resources is the same amount (but it’s a bit slower to research.

Recurve bow give to CA +1 attack and +1 range, while the venetians UT gives only +1 attack (more range of foot archers is britons turf). Despite this, the tech is still balanced, since it’s an improvement over a unit that already have a buffed star (their speed).

It’s not even OP, because there are several things that balance it out. First of all, it comes in late in the game, and you need a castle. Second, venetians completely lack CA and scorps, they also don’t have SO and good cav overall. Comparing it again with recurve now, that UT buff 2 stats on an already stronger unit, while this only add attack.

Overall venetians archers would be a stronger unit to micro, and cav and onagers may have an hard time to kill them, but rams and skirms will still do without any problems, so I think that this makes it balanced.

[Sylux1000]

@DoctBaghi

Archer line (archers/xbow/arbs) and condos get +1 attack.

This is good, condos are bad anyway, while archers get the same attack or some archer UUs.

@DoctBaghi

When researched, it tributes to the player 500 gold for each relic that he possess.

I do not like this one. Personally I am not a great lover of single-use techs. I would like just to point out that such a civ have a trash army too weak, since the cavalry is missing completely. I would suggest a tech which does more in trash fights.

Let me go a bit random:

How do you see the option of trash knights? Missing 2 armor techs and bloodlines, and costing more than hussars. The civ should miss the cavalier ofc.

There is also the option to remove blast furnace to the civ and ensuring the other UT compensates. (+3 attack for infantry, +1 for archers, for a larger cost ofc).

Such a trash knight would be comparable to hussars, but with less los and weaker to monks.

[DoctBaghi]

@Sylux1000

How do you see the option of trash knights?

Not great, I don’t mean in general, but for the venetians. I’m already giving them a gold only cav UU (which I’ll go into detail on a future post), if I give them trash knights, then there won’t be any reason to use the stradiot.

@Sylux1000

This is good, condos are bad anyway, while archers get the same attack or some archer UUs.

Yes but when you need of a melee meatshield all of a sudden they may come in handy.

@Sylux1000

I do not like this one. Personally I am not a great lover of single-use techs. I would like just to point out that such a civ have a trash army too weak, since the cavalry is missing completely. I would suggest a tech which does more in trash fights.

Me neither usually, but this time it would be different than paper money, since the effect has the potential to be huge. I mean it’s a one time use but it give you back 1250 gold on average (more or less…) for 400 “trash” resources.

It means that when you at least a relic, you will always gain more resources than what you are paying, which not even saracens’ market give you.

Pair this whit their UU and it’s basically 5 free cav that don’t need upgrades for each relic.

Compared, PM is a trash tech (in fact I think that the values should be changed, but that an argument for another topic).

Paper Money: 800 f@w for 500g
Fourt Crusade: 400f@w for 500g to 2500g

Also, it’s a castle age tech, so it’s more useful in my opinion…

[Sylux1000]

@DoctBaghi

Not great, I don’t mean in general, but for the venetians. I’m already giving them a gold only cav UU

The cav UU would be much better anyway. A trash knight would not exist in castel, and in imp it would have half PA, less attack, and HP that the UUs.

The trash knight would be a weaker hussar in imp. If you have gold, you should prefer the UU anyway…

[DoctBaghi]

@Sylux1000

The cav UU would be much better anyway. A trash knight would not exist in castel, and in imp it would have half PA, less attack, and HP that the UUs.

The trash knight would be a weaker hussar in imp. If you have gold, you should prefer the UU anyway…

The UU wouldn’t have double the HP of a knight not even in imp, and this is a castle age UT, so it would come in not that late.

Maybe wait until I’ll post the hypothetical stats of the UU, and you’ll see how the 2 units would be incompatible.

@Sylux1000

The trash knight would be a weaker hussar in imp.

Mmm actually no, a knight without upgrades have higher base stats than an hussars (25 more HP, 3 more atk and 2 MA more).

[DoctBaghi]

I know that this video is already around the forum, but I’ll link it here anyway since maybe some people didn’t see it.

ORIGINAL Age of Empires 2 Designer guesses expansion Civs!

Basically it’s an old creator of AoK and AoC who discuss the new civ choices. When asked what mediterranean civ was forgotten (and so added to the forgotten DLC) he answered venetians, this proving that it was the most famous state in the peninsula. He also criticize the choice of creating Italians as a whole civ, when they weren’t really united.

He also supposed an foot sword and shield infantry units as the venetians, but I already gave them an cav UU, which I think it’s fine.

Also sword and shield foot infantry is basically the condos, so by giving them the condos and giving it +1 atk they would get almost the same thing…

[JonOli12]

@DoctBaghi

He also criticize the choice of creating Italians as a whole civ, when they weren’t really united.

Well, his designs also included Saracens and Chinese, which are 2 huge umbrellas, so he should not complain about other umbrellas in the game, like Indians and Italians. His team initiated this design philosophy.

[DoctBaghi]

Yes yes, I didn’t meant as criticize to who designed the italians, I think that they made a good jobs to represent some nothern italians states, but they don’t represent south italy or the north-east italy (where venice is).

This was just a further argument to why the venetians may be a good addition.

[DoctBaghi]

So as I said, now I’ll go into details of their castle UU the Stradiot (for their water UU, the galeass, it’ll take some more time…).

So, we actually already have this unit in AoE3 as a mercenary unit:

I know that some people may like to see some heavy foot infantry like the schiavoni or fanti de mar (the former were dalmatian mercenaries the latter where venetians soldiers) but those are represented by condos and arbs in the game.

So what make the stradiot unique, well there are 2 features:

• First, they are the first and only unit (at least for now) that they cost only gold.
  Cost: 90 gold
  TT: 18 seconds (12s with conscription)
  Elite: 700f 700g and 60s

• Second, it’s not affected by any upgrade, not at the stable, not at the blacksmith, the only eception is its own elite upgrade (for monasteries, venetians don’t get faith or heresy, for the castle, conscription affect the castle not the unit, so it tecnically affect the TT).

What make this unit strong is that their base stats are equal to the the stats of a FU knight in castle age and of FU cavalier for the elite version in imp. Again, there is an exception, because the stradiot have +1 atk over what the knigth and cavalier have. I gave it this buff because I thought that even if you spare food, in the long run it’s not good to spend that much gold, and you also need castles (even if they are trained fast) which is a big drawback, so a little buff on their atk may incourage people to use them more.

So here there are the list of the stradiot stats (elite stats are in brackets):

• HP -> 120 (140) -> This compensate the lack of bloodlines
• atk -> 13 (15) -> This compensate the fact that it is unaffected by blacksmith atk techs
• MA -> 4 (5) -> This compensate the fact that it is unaffected by blacksmith atk techs
• PA -> 4 (6) -> This compensate the fact that it is unaffected by blacksmith atk techs
• speed -> 1.49 -> This compensate the lack of husbandry
  The rest are the same identical stats of the knight.

So, some of you may think that this is OP, well, hear me out first:

First of all, as you can see above, their stables and cav in general are terrible. You can perform a FC into knights to surprise your opponent, but it’s not somethig that you want to stick with in the long run. You also have hussars, but they would be the worse hussars in the game (no husbandry, no BL, lacking 2 armors…).

So stradiots are the only decent cav that you have. Now you may still think that a cav that needs no upgrades, train fast and cost no food and have more atk is still OP… well let’s break this down:

For upgrades, considering even the ones that venetians don’t get, you save on 5 of them potentially, which are; BL (150f 100g), husbandry (150f) and 3 armors (so 750f 350g), so you save 1050f and 450g through the whole game, but in reality most of them you research them in mid castle age. I don’t consider the atk techs because those are shared with infantry, and venetians have good infantry, so they’ll grab those probably. Also, consider that you need the elite upgrade if you use a lot of them, and you have to pay for that.

Now this doesn’t meant that you automatically have those resources, it means that if you need come cav as support, you don’t need to invest into those techs, which is different. Most non-cav civs don’t get all those upgrades right away, but they may still train some knight and light cav in the meantime to support archers or siege. Venetians could do that without needing to wait or train some unupgrade cav.

As for the food saved, it may seem a good option to just boom with food and wood and use only gold to train militay, but it doesn’t work like that. To go heavy into stradiots, you would need at least 2 castles, and by that time, you would most likely already build several TC and trained several vills. I guess that you could do an FC into 1 TC and 2 castles right away, and then add TC, but I see it triky.

Instead, going heavy into a gold only unit isn’t a good thing, strasiots are a support unit, your main units are still foot archers. if you spend all that gold into stradiots, I really hope that you are able to close the game by imp, otherwhis you’ll probably lose.

As for the fast TT, well that it’s needed for adding them quickly when you need them, the only thing that may be not necessary is the +1 atk over the knight, since the stradiot stats are however hight. I do it so because I thougth that still they needed a stats a bit more different than the knight, but we can remove it in castle age and give it only to the elite version.

Still, if you think that this is too strong, let them keep that +1 atk and instead buff the price up to 95 or 100 gold, even if I perosonally think that 90 is actually balanced.

Last but not least, the stradiot appearance:

You saw how the aoe3 stradiot looks like, with a long spear, but I fell like we already have too many cav armed with spears, what we don’t have instead is a cav armed with an hammer or a mace (I mean, yes konniks do have a mace, but I mean a “conventional” one). Also, maybe they could use some more armor compare to their aoe3 counterpart.

I personally would like to see something like this: