New Civ concept: the Venetians

So, since we will get new civs, my hope to see a venetian civilization has risen once again. This was an old civ concept of mine, that I designed years ago, but never shared since we had the Italians and because of the DE “no new civs policy”, but since we got the sicilians…

I know that there are already many requests for new civs, especially for cultures that weren’t included even a bit, and by any means I mean that this civ should to take precedence.

I just want to share my ideas and vision for this civ with you guys and to discuss about it, and at the worst, the ideas, can be used for other civs, new or old. As some of you may know, I live very near to the city, and I was always fascinated by its history. The Italians civ that it’s in the game do not really represent them (focusing more on Genoa and other northern Italy states). The venetians instead were more linked to the bizzantines empire, and they may be add to a DLC more focused on eastern civs.

Bear in mind that this is just a general idea, not necessarily all the numbers are correct and can be tweaked around a bit.

VENETIANS:

Foot soldiers and navy civilization

- Coat of arms:
The Lion of San Marco
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- Wonder:
The church of San Marco with the Ducal Palace
unnamed (1)

Bonuses:

  • Docks works 50% faster and are built in 50% less the time.
    This is referred to the venetian arsenal, the first industrial facility in history.

  • Starts with +150g (so 250g in total).
    This simply is because the venetian republic accumulated so much wealth that was called the serenissima, meaning the most serene.

  • Starts with +150w (so 350w in total):
    This is referred to how the venetians built the city. The terrain on the islands of the lagoon was to “soft” and “muddy”, and and stone construction simply sinked. So the venetians planted thousands of long wooden logs in the terrain, and built the buildings over them. The method worked, the logs “cementified” and still now the very structure that hold Venice in place.

  • Archery range units move 5/10/15% faster in feudal/castle/imp.
    This bonus, together with the imp UT, represent the mandatory use of the xbow for the citizens of Venice and especially sailors, so they were high professionals in range combat.

  • University techs cost 50% less
    This is because of the university of Padua, one of the oldest in the world that was under Venice. Thanks to the autonomy of the republic, several important scientists studied there with less fear of the inquisition, such as Galileo.

Team bonus:

  • Docks provides 5 pop.
    This is referred to the city that was literally built on water. Also, the workers of the arsenal, used to live inside or near it, for them to be more efficient.

  • UU - Stradiot:
    A mercenary cavalry unit with armed with an hammer that cost only gold (between 80 and 100) and they are trained fast, the stats are similar to the knight line (with 1 more atk than the knight)
    The peculiar thing is that they are unaffected by the blacksmith and stables upgrades (which however, they don’t get) but despite that they are comparable to FU knights and cavaliers. The idea is that you can start training them without needing any upgrades, to support your units without the need to invest in any techs or even to build a stable.
    260px-Republica_Venezia_-_Cavalleria_stradiotta_1515-50

  • Naval UU - Galeass
    A naval unit with high armor and an attack similar to the one of the organ gun, but with shorter range and slower.
    They are the children of the TS (tanky ships) and the LB (multiple projectiles atk), though they don’t have as much HP as the TS and they don’t have have the range and frame delay of the LB (so they are more difficult to micro).
    sanlorenzo1-1
    unnamed

  • Castle UT - "Fourth crusade"
    After researching it you receive 500 gold for each relic that is inside one of your monasteries (the cost should be about 300/400 resources of only wood and food).
    This is referred to the 4° crusade, when the venetians pillage Byzantium and stole several important relics, such as the 4 bronze horses.

  • Imp UT - "Fante de Mar"
    Archer line and condos get +1 atk
    That is related to their specialized amphibious soldiers, the “fanti de mar” (infantry of the sea).

As for tech tree:

Dock:
Full tech and FU units except for demo line.

Barracks:
FU halbs, condos and 2HS. Lack champs and of course of EW.

Ranges:
Arbs, skirms and HC FU, completely lack CA and PT.

Stables:
Lack both BL and husbandry, have hussar and knight (not cavalier). Lack of course camels and other regional units.
The idea is that the stradiot are similar to the knight line and fulfill all cavalry necessities of civs, but are heavier on gold.

Siege:
Have siege ram, onager and BBC. Completely lack scorps and lack siege onager.

Blacksmith:
Full techs except for chain and plate cav armor.

University:
Full techs.

Monastery:
Lack heresy, faith, theocracy and atonement.

Eco techs:
Lack gold and stone shaft mining upgrades.

Market:
Full techs.

NOTES:

  • I removed the bonus of free ballistics after building a university because people stated that was too much for their archers. To compensate that I buffed the university discount to 50% (now a standard bonus).
  • Also, the fourth crusade UT now does not speed up the relic gold generation anymore, but instead it tribute you 500g for each relic that you have.
  • I don’t actually mean to give them both SO and SR, I just wasn’t sure of wich would fit them better. The idea is to get the third upgrade of one and the second upgrade of the other.
  • Condos become a regional unit (like EEW, SL, BE…) assign to Italians and venetians (it could be extended to sicilians too). Italians still have the same FU empored by pavise (1/1 armor), and their team bonus is the same (an ally of Venice don’t get condos, an ally of italians do) while the venetians get +1 atk, making the 2 units really a bit different.

Strategy

The general idea is for them to have good foot soldiers, but terrible cavalry, with the exception of their UU.

In dark age they are helped by the extra gold, they can either use it to go for a Drush/M@A into archers, or for an FC that don’t need to gather gold, or for a bit of both. In any case, you’ll need less gold and you can delay your mining camp.

In feudal they are heavily pushed towards an archer rush, their archers are faster making them more effective. Scouts can be used too, despite not having bonuses for them or stables upgrades.

In castle you continue with xbows and LS/pikes, you have free ballistics, for making you archers immediately better, and UT for more gold. Their good archers compensate for the lack of any eco bonus and for their terrible cavalry.

In imp you continue with that, with strong archers and infantry and good siege.

On water you can have an aggressive start, by getting on water faster, this allows you to have a better fish eco. You galleys will also be out sooner, allowing you to save some wood, since you’ll need less docks and houses, and the extra gold helps here too.

On early castle age, you get cheaper ballistics (and chemistry in imp, along with other helpful techs) to help your ships vs more aggressive civs, and you also get the galeass to better take control of the water.

So a bit of history:

repubblica_veneta
The city and lagoon of Venice was one of the few territories that were never conquered by the barbaric invasions that lead to the fall of the WRE. The romans inhabitants of the Venetia flee the inland to seek refuge in the islands of the lagoon, to escape from goths and huns raids. The legend says that some of them were also able to stole and smuggle in the throne of Attila himself.

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In the early years, after the bizzantines recapture of the peninsula, they became a dux of the ERE, and thank to their strong navy, they were able to resist to the invasions of longobards, franks and HRE, despite having good relations with the latter. They also were the only one of the 4 maritime republics that didn’t have longobards origins, and the ones that stayed indipendent for the longest time (until Napoleon), since they were never under the HRE, nor any other foreign dinasty.

At some point, after gaining their indipence from Byzantium, started conquering the coastline of Istria and Dalmatia and founded a trade empire that stretched from Venice, to Crimea, the holy land and Egypt. At some point they also conquered the Peloponnese , Crete and several greek islands, along with most of the north Italy.

They had a bitter rivalry with the Genoese for the control of the Mediterranean, often exchanging trade bases through military conquest. The Genoese at some point were even able to conquer some of the island of the lagoon, and to siege Venice itself, but despite this, the venetians hold their position and inch by inch reconquered every canal and island, until the genoese became the besieged.

After them, the venetians became a torn in the side of the ottomans. While they weren’t able to stop them from taking their Greek territories, they defeated them on sea several times, the most famous one was the battle of Lepanto, where the venetians brought more than half of the holy league ships. After that though, they managed to save only their istrian and dalmatian possessions.

They lost their prestige when the ottomans locked them out of the silk road, and when other trade routes (like around Africa, or to the America) were discovered, but they still managed to stay an important diplomatic and cultural hub in Europe, with a neutral policy that made them the mediator where other European powers could safely meet. Also they still detained one of the most important harbor of the Mediterranean and keep trading with the Flanders and the rest of the Christian Mediterranean, and the wealth accumulated gave them the name “la serenissima”, meaning the most serene.

Venice stop being an indipendent state when Napoleon ignored its neutrality and invaded it, threatening to level the city. To avoid that, the Doge (the elected venetians leader) surrendered, but that didn’t stop the French from looting the city of any piece of art that they could find. But despite that, the venetians still managed to hide and save most of their cultural heritage, and most of them can be seen in modern museums.

480px-Repubblica_di_Venezia
The republic of Venice at its peak, with its north Italy and oversea territory possession, and its most important trade routes

20 Likes

Faster Archers, free ballistics and archer with extra attack OMEGALUL

Edit: i’ve just seen the relic bonus and the siege shop. Let me guess, sei di Venezia ve’? 11

4 Likes

If Slavic Team bonus effects Docks, Slavic Team bonus needs to be nerfed (all military buildings except dock).

That’s a lot. %5/10/15 enough (still a lot but better). I am OK with just %5.

That’s a little bit OP. Maybe need some nerf like %50 faster (Aztecs team bonus %33 faster and Indian Sultans makes %10 faster), balanced and unique.

Too good to be team bonus, so exchange with Dock bonus. Maybe Docks support 5 pop as a team bonus. Not sure

I want this to be just Saracen and make memes about it.

This is unique for Koreans. Nerf it.

Can lack Crop Rotation. It is useless too.

Make it researched immediately. Not free. Like gothic loom.

Archers are faster and everything which I want to use as Venitians +1 attack doesn’t feel good.

Others are not bad.

1 Like

I feel that with this civ you could win 1v2 against same level opponents.

Jokes apart, faster building docks and supporting pop is ok, university cost too but not as team bonus.

Archer speed, free ballistics and +attack on archers are out of scale of OPness, so should never be a thing.

Infantry attack, relic bonus, starting gold bonus and faster working dock are already other civ bonuses, which is not ideal… That’s why the game really struggles to fit new civ at the moment

2 Likes

Very broken civ. We need non-European civs. Two civ bonuse for one unit is always OP.

6 Likes

Non proprio ma molto vicino 11

Slavs bonus don’t affect docks

Meh, 5% is really a small, not noticeable in feudal. Consider that +20% is still slower than a plumes.

Well, consider that this is a tech that affects only relics. It has a cost, so it need to have a considerable impact, but yes, we can tweak around with the percentage.

Yeah I thought that too, I’ll modify the original post.

That’s not really something that is civ related. For example up to DE spanish were the only ones without xbow.

Yeah but usually civs don’t lack more than 2 eco techs, especially the ones without any eco bonus.

Mmm could work, but it’s not like they have that many military bonus, and this was thought to compensate their bad cav.
Though it can be locked behind the university.

NOTE: I removed the bonus, now with the new university bonus ballistics have half of the cost, but it’s not researched immediately.

So maybe just archers? Yeah maybe you are right.

The +1 atk would come after a costly tech in imp researched at a castle, so it would come in late, I think this would make it balanced.
Also, they completely lack CA, and have terrible cav (worse than britons and ethiopians).

Well, +150g is the same bonus of aztecs in the same measure of the lithuanians bonus is the same of persians. The same is for faster working docks.
I agree on the infantry atk.

Yeah I may have exaggerated a bit…

I removed one, so it’s now 1 civ bonus and 1 UT.

The university bonus still help their archers but it’s less powerful and more indirect.

1 Like

I like the city, the idea and the overall civ concept. Still it would be needed to change the name of the Italians. In addition to buff them, but this is another story.

Btw, which is the current civ representing Venice? Italians or Byzs?

50% faster dock sounds extremely good, on water. You actually miss a decent eco, so it can be ok. However I would make this progressive with respect to the ages, like 30/40/50% in feudal/castle/imp.

Well, this would simply act as a better Aztec bonus. Maybe we could think of a different concept. Since it seems to me that we are starting to see AoM/AoE3 bonuses, I just recall the idea of a gold trickle. Like one relic. I already know you do not like this 11

I should try to figure out how fast an archer would be with respect to plumes, rattans, and CAs. I could work, definitely.

If the civ will be not introduced, this could be a bonus for Italians.

Considering that this mainly affects 3-4 techs, it is fine.

It makes a lot of sense.

Nice, I like also the relation with the tech tree. Would a FC into them possibile for TG pocket?

I do not understand what this unit is supposed to do…

The idea of the gold trickle is always valid 11

Fine with this. Again, if the civ is not introduced, it could be given as a ci bonus to Italians.

Not sure if both SO and SR are needed.

Overall I like the concept! Nice job :wink:

1 Like

New new civ concept, “The other Venetians”. And then, “The Venetians’ friends”. 10 euros per friend.

Meanwhile, the game bugs out if you want to change your civ while in queue…

2 Likes

Archer line has 0.96 speed. Plumes has 1.20, you are right they aren’t going to faster than plumes (too close) but they will be created from Archery Ranges and easy to micro with free speed.

Yes, this is better and it needs to be a little bit pricey. Like 750 wood 500 gold to effect archer production too. (Wood and gold)

As I know a Korean ruler was innovative that’s why Koreans has full University. Some techs like Architecture or Treadmill Crane doesn’t that important.

As I said, Crop Rotation isn’t important so they can have it :smiley:.

1 Like

I think it all looks good, a couple concerns…

Remember celts are only 5% faster than most civs. Cumans only get 5% in imperial…

Even lith skirms and pikes are only 10% and they aren’t power units…

20% is mind boggling speed for a power unit imo. And 10% in feudal on an archer gives big micro potential.

The gold is also huge imo. Pros could potentially abuse it too much in some cheese rush. Remember goths had their mere 50g nerfed.

How many extra militia can we make for 150g? What can that g be turned into at a market…? I thin there’s so much potential for abuse for cheese.

3 Likes

Yay just what we need, more Italians

3 Likes

Good Archer Rush or no gold mining fast castle. You are archer civ I think you don’t want to buy food.

Total gold:250 g
Loom:50 g
Remaining:200 g
A militia:20 g
If you have enough food (I don’t think so) you can train 10 militias.

1 Like

It may work, but it need to include dark age too. Still, I think that even 50% is balanced.

The trickle may work too in this case (I’m not a fan of it, but I’m against it only for already existing civs, not for new ones, for balance reasons).

But the idea behind it is the flexibility. Aztecs have it because once they saved 50g by not researching loom.

For venetians it would be different, they can use it either for a Drush into M@A or for a FC with loom that doesn’t require any gold mined. It’s basically their only eco bonus, like the +150f of the lithuanians.

Having more gold at the start is better, because it allows you to actually delay sending vills to gold even for one trip. So it’s a lot stronger than a trickle for an aggressive civ, because to actually use the trickle, you would need to wait for it to build up.

In feudal they would be a bit faster than standard archer, but still slower than rattan. In castle age xbows would be faster than rattan, but slower than plumes. In imp they would still be slower than plumes.

Not really, I balanced it for the venetians by removing completely CA, and by giving them terrible cav. Italians instead have good cav and at least castle age CA.

It may, but it would be heavy on gold, and it would require castles. Also, the stradiots would be comparable to cavaliers, paladins would still be a lot stronger.

A bit of middle road between a turtle ship and longboat. Of course it wouldn’t have neither the HP of the former and the micro (range and frame delay) of the latter. And the attack would be similar to the organ gun.

Meh, italians already have silk road, which is a good UT.

Maybe not, but I completely removed the scorps to balance them out.

5/10/15% may work too, but considering that they completely lack mobility (no CA, terribile cav) I thought that it would be balanced.

Yeah of course, I didn’t include the cost but I was thinking of something even more expensive.

I mean, they could lose treadmill crane it’s not a big deal. But I see having a full tech university as having a full tech blacksmith, or a full tech barracks and so on… not something that should alone denote the uniqueness of a civ.

Ah ok, lol I understood the other way around 11

Cumans 5% is on already fast units, so that’s all they need. As for celts you are actually right, but again, the venetians cav would be even worse of the one that the celts have, that’s why I think that the faster archers line are balanced.

A bit yes, but after some time, the bonus expires. And you don’t have a permanent Eco bonus for them.

The idea was that they could either go for a FC with loom, or for a e militia Drush (60g) into M@A (40g) with the gold left for a couple of archers (3 if you don’t research M@A, or again you could for a FC), all without the need to gather gold.

Either way, they wouldn’t become the new goths, since they still need to pay the full price for each militia, and they would have no advantage on food.

As for the market is "buy 100 of food or wood for free 2 times, then you would have 50g, again, it does help, but after that the bonus is gone. If you need food, for example for a scout rush, you can do it, but then you’ll need to gather more gold for castle age. As for wood, spending 175 wood for a market for then buying 200 (25w gained) it doesn’t make much sense.

I mean, saracens bonus is a market bonus, not this one…

Never said that this should take priority over fixing bugs or over covering less covered cultures.

I just wanted to share an old concept of mine, I don’t “pretend” to see this civ implemented in the game, but I have hope since we will see more civs.

And if it won’t be the venitians, then maybe this may help for new civ bonuses/ideas.

Don’t get me wrong, I think that some civs should take priority, or come out with them. But I’m not an expert of those civs, so I help where I can.

Also, italians are wrong as they are depicted on the game, and since now we get the sicilians, may they may cover other Italians states.

Good question… I think a bit of both.

The bizzantines wonder is similar to the church of San Marco, and of other churches in the lagoon, since it the early years, the city architecture had a lot in common with the bizzantines.

The fire ship bonus and UT also is something related with Venice, since they often used effectively fire ships tactics.

For Italians the condos and gunpowder bonus may be the things that are more related to Venice, since they used them both (mercenaries and gunpowder) a lot, especially on nort Italy, but that were a common aspect of the Italians city states.

The dock bonus too may be seen as related to their naval strength, but the venetians were more about faster building ships. Their arsenal was able to build a ship at day, I guess that cheaper shipwright may be seen this way, but it’s a bit of a stretch.

However, it was remembering of this old civ concept that I came up with the new rebalance for Italians of 20/33% cheap and faster age up/dock.

That way venetians would be included a bit more, but it wouldn’t completely cut it. Still, I understand if people prefer other civs, in any way this may however help.

Oh quit your whining!

This game is doing better than HD or Voobly ever did, and EVERYONE is still asking for more civs.

4 Likes

Their unique unit should cost at least 90 gold if you want to make them gold heavy vs knights since the 70 food on knights could easily be exchanged for 5 gold + the lack of need to make stables, stable upgrades and blacksmith upgrades.

It also seems you made stable cavalry completely useless but buffed the archer line a bit too much. The extra speed and extra attack would make them the best archers in the game (not necessarily a problem as long as they have weaknesses to compensate for that).

I’d nerf their infantry by removing their halb upgrade or remove the last armor upgrade for infantry, just so they’d have to struggle a bit vs cavalry.

Also, their siege is a bit too strong especially when you have SO + BBC + siege engineers. I’d not give them SO for one. Not giving them scorpions at all doesn’t compensate for that.

Other than that, I’m liking the idea. And also hopefully they should get an actual Italian voice pack (that they shall share with Italians and Sicilians instead of Italians speaking Latin).

1 Like

I never thought I would learn so much history from civ concepts here in AoE 2 DE forums. Those stradiot UU are very fabulous. I think this is a better choice than Sicilians though.

2 Likes

Could work, it may be even 100 if their stats are better than the ones of the knight (like having 3 instead of 2 PA, or having +1/2 atk, or some hidden bonus damage).

Well, their archers benefits from the speed bonus mostly, and a bit by a discounted ballistics and chemistry. The extra attack is balanced because is locked behind an UT (so in imp at a castle) and the cost can be used balance it (I was thinking of about the cost of recurve bow or yeomen).

As for their tech tree, I removed completely CA, and their stables are terrible (not BL, no husbandry, no cavalier and lacking 2 armor). So it’s their archers are what give them mobility and DPS.

Yeah they could lose either SR or SO, I gave them both because I wasn’t sure of what they should lack. The lack of scorps is for giving them a bit uniqueness, and again to balance their arbs.

Thanks man.

Let’s hope for it, especially in italy at the time, every state had its own languages. You can hear the difference between north and south and east and west even on the current italian language.