New Civ Idea - Göktürks

Age of Empires II: DE II - Discussion
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The History of the Jewish Khazars by D. M. Dunlop said that in 448, Priscus is mentioned Akatzir people which vassal of Huns. It is debatable that this Akatzir people is Khazars. In addition, Author says Zacharias Rhetor mentioned about Khazars in 569. Before it was known that Khazars emerged as vassal of Western Göktürk Khaganate in 628. Wikipedia also defend this old argument. D. M. Dunlop claimed that Khazars were in Caucasus before Western Göktürks’ conquering North Caucasus.

My memory mislead me about time of emergence of Tiele People. I am accepting my wrong in this topic.

Uyghurs gained successes against Tang Dynasty more than Göktürks. Göktürks gained sucessess against divided China but when Tang Dynasty is showed up, Göktürks lost battles against Tang Empire and annexed by Tang Empire in 630. In 680, Göktürks won their independence after 50 years subjugation. In 680-744, Göktürks fought against rebellious Turk tribes more than China. In this time period, Göktürks wasn’t more successful than 740-844 Uyghur Khaganate.

I don’t favour Göktürks because of before-mentioned reasons. Politically, Göktürks wasn’t too much successful comparing to Uyghurs and Khazars. As for Cultural influence, importance of Göktürks is far behind comparing to Uyghurs and Khazars.

We are still talking about Roman Empire due to not only their military power but also their influence to World. Therefore, Khazars and Uyghurs are more important than their only political power. Slavs adapted cavalry archer and steppe lancer units from Khazars. In game, Devs didn’t mention this side of Rus due to design and balance reason I think.

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I like them. They could be with the Gokturks in a theme DLC.
If we just focus on Sogdians themselves, the content may be a little bit less. However, they could cover the other Eastern Iranic peoples well, such like the Scythians, Hephthalites, Tocharians and so on, while the existing Persians represent Western Iranic peoples. Even the Pashtuns may able to be covered by them since they are also the Eastern Iranic people, perhaps naming this civ Iranians would be a bit broader on this occasion.

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I may design them like the following:

  • Hunters and Fishermen can drop-off the food directly but work -10%, when the Gokturk one is that Huntable animals contain +50% food.
  • Villagers, Fishing Ships, Trade units, Monks and Scout Cavalry line use 0.5 pop, but the max pop cap -20% (160 if 200).
  • Free Coinage, Banking and Guilds.
  • Team bonus: Market provides 10 population and is able to be garrisoned by Trade Carts again.

Wonder: Ark of Bukhara.

UU: Hephthalites, or Hephthalite Rider.
Cheap cavalry archer at the price of 45 food and 40 wood. Use 0.5 pop, easy to be gathered, strong against archers but weak against melee units. The use mat be similar to Genitour but more powerful.

  • HP: 35 → 45 (as same as Imperial Skirmisher and Elite Kipchak)
  • Attack: 3 → 4, +4 → +5 vs Archer, +3 → +5 vs Spearman, +2 → +3 Cavalry archer (almost as same as Elite and Imperial Skirmisher)
  • Rate of Fire: 2.0 (as same as Cavalry Archer)
  • Frame delay: 12 (as same as Genitour)
  • Attack delay: 0.5 (as same as Genitour)
  • Range: 4
  • Accuracy: 90%
  • Armor: 0/3 → 0/4 (as same as Skirmisher and Elite one)
  • Speed: 1.4 (as same as Cavalry Archer)
  • LoS: 6
  • Upgrade cost: 1000 gold

Castle UT: Sabao, or “薩保”, “Sarthavaha”
Trade units and monks get +100% HP and +15% speed.

Imperial UT: Tocharians
Except for siege weapons and ships, all the units +3 melee armor.

Having Parthian Tactics, all economy techs, Steppe Lancer, Champion, Halberdier and Arbalester, but no Paladin, no Elite Skirmisher, no Blast Furnace, no Siege Onager, no Siege Engineers and no Heresy for balance.

I think it can be left for the Hausa, or Kanems.
Cima, or ‘master of the frontier’, was military commander of the Kanem Empire. It could be the camel lancer UU.

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The Oğuric peoples who earlier formed part of the Tiele confederation are attested quite early, having been driven West by the Sabirs (Avars/Huns), and began to flow into the Volga-Caspian-Pontic zone from as early as the 4th century CE, and are recorded by Priscusto reside in the Western Eurasian steppe lands as early as 463.

This variegated tribal federation were led by these old Tiele peoples such as the Ashina clan, probably comprising a complex assortment of other Turkic peoples, Iranians, proto-Mongols, Bulgars, Uralic peoples, etc. Among them, many powers rise and competed for the steppe successively after the disintegration of the Western Turkic Khanate, such as the civil war between the Onoq, and war between the Old Great Bulgaria led by Duolu and the Khazar Turks led by Ashina. The Khazar Khanate eventually defeated the Bulgars, who later moved westward and became the precursor to the First Bulgarian Empire.

Then why did you create this thread?

The conquest of the Göktürks by the Tang was a very proud moment in Chinese history, and the An Lushan Rebellion was the most well-known internal trouble in Chinese history. These events rewrote Chinese history, which were not only military, political, and culturally influential, but even stimulated many artistic creations. Therefore, in comparison, although the medieval Uyghurs were a neighbor of the Tang Dynasty, their reputation was not as good as that of the Göktürks among the Chinese people.

As the common overlord of the primitive Turkic peoples, they are indeed suitable to be introduced into the game as a representative. Moreover, they definitely had far-reaching effects beyond the military, but maybe this is something you will never be able to empathize with.

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First step you should stop calling people’s ideas ‘‘stupid’’ and act like a 13 years old boy in mid school.
Secondly, You don’t have more authority then %70-80 of most well known historians who calls Huns were mostly of Turkic origin or u dont have more information then Britannica or wikipedia or etc. Dude i dont want to be disrespectful but your approaches can only be so tiny when compared these i counted… Even the leaders of Huns name’s are Turkic and only intelligible by Turkish language yet you sill deny it for whatever reason it is and i don’t really care much of that.
Lets get into other things (important things) I believe Vikings are not Germanic (i thought they were nordic) but im not sure
Also i thought Spanish , Sicilians , İtalians were of Latin in origin u called them Germanic too.Maybe for you one who lives in Europea is germanic somehow ? İs there any historical truth or documentary about those ? I want to learn because im not sure whats what in that era (Being Hungarian we are not Germanic as far as i know right 11)
When in game Finally…Tatars , Cumans and Turks are even speaking same language after all.Gokrurks would be just another Turkic civ. And will act like Mongols,Cumans and Huns. When it comes to Turks in game they represent Turkic people who migrated to anatolia for sure. But somewhat they are still same people and besides using vast Gunpowder ,their millitary organisations are pretty much depend on light cavarly & horse archers etc (taking its root by their pre nomadic lifestyle)
For me Gokturks can be represented perfectly by Cumans or Huns or even Mongols.Also for me adding Huns and Goths were little bit out-date for this game (they needed to be in AoE I) So i believe Gokturks and Huns would be %80-90 same for their identity lifestyle culture language etc…And can only be in AoE I i think.

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And settled peoples depend on heavy cavalry, infantry and foot archers. All the similar way. 11

When the Gokturks have no paladins and Mangudais, their strategy and gameplay could already be different from Huns, Cumans and Mongols a lots. 11

There are only 6 nomadic or semi-nomadic civs in the game, even adding 4 more is fine and appropriate in my opinion.

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Honestly you are the one that is starting the agression by overreacting this much.

Franks ARE French, they are based on France and French are just the evolution of the Franks, with French not existing without Franks since at the core they were the same people. You cant say that for Gokturks.

Okay, fair point on Huns. I thought that since their origin was unclear that including Huns with them would be weird but whatever.

They all are. Norse peoples are germanic, and just like French the Spanish, Sicilian and Italian peoples are germanic peoples that adopted latin languages. Also, forgot to mention Portugues on my original post. Yet another germanic civ.

Just like Georgians would be another infantry + paladin european civ but most people will still be asking for it. And I believe we still could get an steppe lancer civ, maybe even one without knights and as one of the most influential steppe empires to ever exist Gokturks seem perfect for it, and as I said before all other civs arent a good fit for Gokturks. They are way more diferent to the current civs culture wise (except maybe Huns but you wont be able to make a solid argument to say that they are similar) and they would be the best addition to the game since Rise of the Rajas since honestly except for maybe Lithuanians/Poles (which are fine but once you have one of the two adding the other seems extremetly unnecesary) they would be the only important civ that didnt have a good civ to represent them before. Heck, you complain about the Steppe civs but they are still way better and more unique than the western European heavy cav civs.

And the argument that Huns and Goths fit better in a game including Sumerians than in a game including Franks and Byzantines will always seem weird to me. They fit way better with the Aoe2 roster even if I still rather not include civs which lasted so little

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I didn’t say Khazars came Europa earlier than Oğurs, Sabirs, Huns, Avars. I said that they are contemporary to Göktürks. Göktürks (it is recorded as “Türk”) is firstly recorded in Persian sources in 420, on the other hand Chinese sources firstly mentioned Göktürks (It is recorded as “Türk” just like all sources) in 546. This shows that when Göktürks became political power. It is very normal that Ashina clan become dynasty of a lot of Turk Khanagates. Sons of Genghis Khan ruled 80% of the Eurasian Khaganates in the same way. Also 80% of European Kingdoms is ruled by House of Bourbon and House of Habsburg. However, according to Wikipedia, Bulgar and Khazar Khagans being Ashine Clan member is debatable.

General problem is people unrelated to history doesn’t know what influence means. They think like this empire has largest area or gained some temporary military successes, therefore it should be most important Empire in history. Of course, Göktürks are important but it isn’t in 5 most important Turkish Khanagates in history. It is number 8 at best.

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Don’t even bother with some people here, all you can end up is getting to their level (it happened to me a lot) and it has no point since more than half of their information is wrong.
For example it’s 130 not 200 years of Gokturks so Seljuks were a bit longer lasting with 157 years…

I liked the facts you pointed out and had some research of my own. Some scholars believe Cumans absorbed the remains of Western Gokturks after their collapse. So they might be already represented just in different name, but their ethnicity, culture, language, warfare, are already well represented by Cumans.

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It was 534 AD when the Ashina became chieftain, so it took 210 years until the disintegration of the Second Turkic Khaganate in 744 AD. If counted from the establishment of First Turkic Khaganate, the total is 192 years. If other khanates ruled by the Ashina clan are included, it is definitely not only until 744 AD.

I don’t consider the length of time is a necessary condition for a civ. I just don’t think the early medieval Turkic culture and the Turkic peoples of the East are properly represented in the game, while the Seljuks are really well represented by the Turks and are clearly defined by the dev as part of the Turks in the game.

This does not serve as a strong argument for the high degree of homogeneity between the two. Just like because Korean and Japanese cultures contain a lot of elements absorbed from China so they don’t have the value of becoming in-game civs and can be covered by the Chinese.

The game lacks an appropriate representative for the early medieval Turkic culture and the Turkic peoples of the East. It could be named Gokturks or any other suitable else, and this need is really there. The Cuman civilization in the game clearly demonstrates and emphasizes its relationship with Europe, which is fundamentally different in meaning from the potential Gokturk civilization. The differences will also be reflected in the tech tree, resulting in different gameplay and strategies.

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Get your elitism outta here. Look at some of the people you support first

Also, as I said before the Gokturks can still represent Uyghurs, and your numbers are wrong too since you didnt count the time the western Khaganate was independent, and Cumans werent that close

Honestly Cumans feel like an odd choice in general. Huns as well, but whatever

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You are the one to speak, most hateful and disrespectful person here. Most of your arguments are wrong, you only get into fights with people, several threads were locked down because of you.

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I have had enough of being insulted by you. You seem to ignore all the people you support here that are way worse than me. You are just spiteful because I feel Serbs arent that big of a deal

I want to defend the suposedly uncivilized and barbarious world. Thats it.

And you rarely prove me wrong outside of some sort of “technically” argument

At best one or two. Most of them were locked for other reasons.

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They fit into the AOE2 timeframe no doubt, event though only its beginning. What i wanted to say is that i wouldn’t mind Gokturks being added if it was before Cumans and Turks, but after those two civs added before it seems redundant.
To be frank i wouldn’t mind that much if they were added, but i would give advantage to other civs first.

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Thıs stand as strong as rock …I personally believe and support that idea more then %100 :smiley:

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Not talking about you, was talking about others like DarthPyro which the dude really liked.

I just told you that French were a terrible comparison, nothing else for you to call me a toxic 13 year old. And yes Im attacking @srbnems. Im sick of him calling me toxic when he has been supported some of the most ignorant and toxic people here (and before you use the “you are the most ignorant here” thats like the laziesr answer you can give me) while complaining about me because I dont like Serbia. Im just tired of his contant whine about it.

This just isnt true. They are less similar to Cumans than Franks compared with Sicilians, Burgundians and Teutons. And they are probably way less close to Huns.

Literally the only thing I said that was contradicted by your websites is that Huns werent Turkic, and I admited that I was wrong.

Theres 0 argument to be made that Cumans and Gokturks are as close as Franks and French.

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Historical sources prove that there are a lot of differences within the Turkic peoples. And the definition of these civs in the game obviously does not cover the Turkic society in the early Middle Ages and the Turkic forces in the East. As I stated, the need does exist. No any Chinese speaking player would feel it’s suitable that the Gokturks use janissaries from Ottomans centuries later or mercenaries which Cumans used to support Hungary, As long as he/she know a little about the enemies his/her ancestors faced.

The Gokturk civ is the best choice in my opinion for satisfying the need, if there will be a next Turkic civilization and it is the last Turkic civilization. It is just puzzling to me that you would argue for the South Slavs or Yugoslavs, one of the only remaining holes in Europe, while intentionally ignoring a bigger hole in Asia that needs to be filled.

Then you should also support the use of Chinese to replace Japanese, or vice versa. The Japanese write Chinese characters, use chopsticks to eat rice and noodles, and learned about the technology, form of government, Confucianism, Buddhism, art, culture and so many on from the Tang Dynasty. The Japanese and even the Koreans and Vietnamese have absorbed many characteristics from the Chinese. You don’t care about the difference more than 100% anyway.

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Ok fair enough, i don’t support the idea of China replacing all other civs they had strong influence on (Japan, Korea as you mentioned) and i agree on what you said on South Slavs, i won’t argue there. Like i said, i’m not dead set that Gokturks absolutely shouldn’t be in the game, i was just expressing my opinion which is that i would rather put Seljuks than Gokturks. However, i respect your opinion that Gokturks would be better pick than Seljuks. But i have to ask, should there be any additional Turkic nations if the Gokturks were added? How different could you make Gokturks from Cumans and Huns in game? I’m not saying their culture is exactly the same, just how can they be different enough.

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That is not my business. I just do assumption that there is only 1 new civ for Turkic peoples, and I suggest the Gokturks are best since they could cover the broadest to satisfy the need for the Turkic society in the early Middle Ages and the Turkic forces in the East.

Did not you check the bonuses, UU, UTs and tech tree I assumed for the Gokturks above?
No janissaries, no mangudais, no paladins, no good siege, their gameplay strategies are different enough.

If you just regard that the nomadic peoples would only value the light cavalry and cavalry archer line, that is the problem of the structure of game itself and the settled peoples will encounter similar problem. Or, you need to study the different of potential steppe peoples. For example, the Göktürks value rapid aggression and scouting, the Sogdians value trade and religion, the Khitans value diplomacy and refugee admissions and espionage, the Jurchen value heavy cavalries and Chinese firearms, etc. Enough potential and creativity to design some new and different steppe civs.

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Seljuk Empire’s state organization is copied by surrounding sultanates and other sultanates established on the lands of the Seljuks after collapse of Seljuk Empire. In conclusion, it is clear that Seljuk Empire is most influential Turk Sultanate together with Ottomans. Seljuk Empire deserve to be in the game as well as Göktürks.

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*Cavalry Archer and Light Cavalry Civilizations

Civilization bonuses

  • Hunters no longer require Mills or Town Centers to drop off food.
  • Caravan and Coinage are free (Cause of Silk Road)
  • Steppe Lancers are 10%/20% cheaper in the Castle/Imperial Age.
  • Scout Cavalry +1/+2 damage in the Castle/Imperial Age.
  • Cavalry Archer available in Feudal Age; Heavy Cavalry Archer upgrade available in Castle Age.

Team bonus: Trade cards generate food in addition to gold (%15 or %20)…

Castle Tech
Blue (Celestial) Lancer : Steppe Lancer have +1 Range and +1 Damage
Imperial Tech
For Budun : It is a UU that turns into a Dismounted Archer, an archer, when killed. (Like a Konnik)

Unique units

  • Börü (CA) : Deer Archers (New Desing) good vs trash units bad vs cavalry (e.g The Reindeer Riders)