New Civilization - Caucasus

Hello,

I can’t understand why there is no CAUCASIAN civilization in this game. Is AOE staff not having any experts in history to provide them some information?

I feel the variants of civilization is just uninteresting thing you are doing, because it is not even giving interest to inactive players to come back.
Instead of these useless variants, you could have introduced new civilizations like Caucasus, something related with Vikings, …?

Please make people willing to play with the civilizations where they come from.

Thank you for your understanding.

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They haven’t added an Iberian or a proper Hindu civilization which I’d imagine to be more relevant than either of those. Mesoamerican and Indochina civilizations are also extremely high demand.

The truth is, half of the civilizations are basically the northern half of the “west”. HRE, French, English, English again and French two more times.

Like, I get that a Norse civilization would be cool, but they’ve wayyyyy too heavily focused on this part of the world already. There are more exciting civilizations to explore for diversity of cultures. I’d frankly see more african civilizations, southeast asian civilizations, central asian civilizations, native american civilizations before I see more northern/steppe european ones.

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All mentionned civilizations would be much more better than of course those unnecessary variants, made for a small community.

Regarding relevance, I’m informing you that the Chechens, Cherkess, … (Caucasians) have proven more than any empires mentionned.
Mongols have faced big issues in Caucasus, couldn’t submit Chechens in their montains and followed their path to own Rus and Europe. Only somewhere in Egypt, thanks to Mamluks, Mongols have also faced loss. And if u look for origins of Mamluks, you will strangely find Caucasians besides others.
Ottomans have faced losses willing to submit Chechens in the 17-18 centuries. Like a khan from Crimea when going through Chechnya, wanted the people to submit to him and provide women at his disposal. He has faced a big loss. and some other battles.
After Russian empire when winning Ottomans, Russia was also trying to conquere Caucasus step by step. They faced big losses to a minority again. Higher losses comparing to quantity. And thus, followed brutal measures burning village by villages.

I am wondering why would some other civilizations and variants would have a considerable importance and not Caucasians??

Relevance to the playerbase, not historical significance. Hispanic players make up a large portion of AoE communities and just haven’t been represented.

The Aztecs are just an extremely unique fan favourite, and Hindu and Buddhist representation in the form of Vijayanagara and Khmer would bring much needed gameplay and historical diversity.

I also disagree with your sentiment. The caucuses, while different, are not a dramatic shift in flavour like the ones I’ve mentioned above. It’s another flavour of Christianity.

There are more places in the world. I’d rather see Steppe Asian Tengrist, Native American Animalist and African cultures than more niche Christian cultures. The only reason I give Hispanics a pass is because they are clearly the last remaining group in that sect that isn’t niche that hasn’t been brought over to AoE4 yet.

Hmmmm…

I think, that You are overestimating the importance the Caucasians.

says the Slovakian …

Aztecs could be chosen in AOE 3 and some others civilizations.

Honestly Hindu, Vijayanagara and Khmer is just variants to Delhi civilization. Thus, just useless as other variants.

AoE3 is not AoE4.

Delhi is nothing like those two. Like, what?

They’re not even close, nor would it make sense for them to be variants.

  • Vijayanagara, apart from having a different language and villagers (Delhi speaks Persian), would have different mechanics, especially related to Hindu culture and religion, and other unique units (Khatar swordsman, chakram thrower, Brahman).

  • Khemer, their war elephant design was different, as was their language, architecture, and unit model. The elephant with a Ballista could be one of their unique units.

And regarding war elephants, which I think is the reason you think they’d be variants, I think they’ll eventually have to be made common to several Southeast Asian civs. However, their unique bonuses and technologies would vary between civs.

As for why there isn’t a Caucasus yet, it’s simple:

  • 1).- They’re not that well-known.
  • 2).- There were civs with priorities before them.

And if I’m talking about priorities, the first 8 civs had them because they appeared in AoE2, and this game is supposed to be their 3D evolution, as well as to fill an arqueotype:

  • English.- Archer civ
  • French.- Cavalry civ
  • Holy Roman Empire.- Infantry civ
  • Abbasid.- Camel civ
  • Delhi Sultanate.- Elephant civ
  • Mongols.- Raiding civ
  • Mongols.- Archer/Cavalry hybrid
  • China.- Civs with more unique units

They also had historical archenemies for the campaign: English/French, Abbasid/English&French&HRE, Mongols/China&Rus&Delhi.

Finally, the HRE was used as the base civ for the Polish and Lithuanian Campaigns, although without new unique units.

Due to time and COVID (2019-2021), there wasn’t enough room to include more civs or campaigns. Well, things are different now, and many things have changed:

1.- Civs can have an unusual number of unique units; (Japan has 14 UU)
2.- Variants no longer have to be near-identical copies of their parent civ, (Knight Templars)

And for future DLCs, if there are enough references and civilizations to campaign against, they will create new civs from what’s available, even caucasian civs.

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Also, I do find the idea of ​​the Caucasus interesting, but you’d have to be more specific:

Are you referring to the Medieval Kingdom of Georgia and Armenia or another specific kingdom?

As far as I can see, there’s more information about the Chechens from AoE3 (1492-1850) than from AoE4 (750-1650).

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I believe I made mistake with Khemer, as it is actually not in the same territories (approximately) with India/Hindu/Delhi and Viyanagara.

My point was, there shouldn’t be the goal prioritizing cultures (with small differences) or groups belonging to general cultures. When you look their architecture, language, people type … they are almost the same.
It would be like I am telling you not Caucasian civilization but Chechens, Georgians, Dagestanis, Cherkes, … civilizations apart because they also some differences between them. But in general they look the same. So there is no rush for having separate variants. The game needs all big different cultures.
For instance Caucasians have their buildings (towers) and it is a separate architecture from other civilizations. The army units would be different. You have nothing similar to Caucasians at the moment.

At the moment you have Europeans, Asians, Slavics, Arabs, Africans, Indo … so Caucasians is the best choice. Native Americans were already in AOE 3, so you know if this was a succes or not.

Sad they are not that known by west.

If there are enough references? do you need people to provide you sources, … so that you consider any new civilization?

Honestly for me Kingdom of Georgia would be already interesting to play, as it represents the Caucasian people.

If you are looking for history information about Chechens before 17 century, you will have hard to find.
You have to know that their past has been burned by purpose, mainly by russians during Caucasian wars.

I believe for your timeline 700 - 1500, the following groups existed in the Caucasus (as they were called before): Alania, Durdzuks, Circassian, Khazars, …

For instance, Mongols have had battles with those groups and it could have a relation with Mongol campaign.

You still don’t get it. These cultures are unfathomably different. They’re not “almost” the same. You don’t seem to know what their culture is at all. And then you shy away from Aztecs or Incas because they were in AoE3… So you’re just making excuses and are inconsistent.

The Caucuses are not more different than these civilizations are to the existing roster.

maybe u are blind and geographically u are retarded …

Good morning.

Sorry if I didn’t comment before, but anyway, I had to work, my electricity went out for two days, and I’ve been busy with other things. I’m going to split my comment into sections, first for short questions and then for long comments.

Okay, I understand.

You’re asking for Caucasian civs so there’s more variation between civs, so more exotic designs. Since this is a long topic, I’ll elaborate in another comment.

They were (a success).

In fact, my favorite AoE3 campaigns were Warchieft’s, because they at least considered historical elements (American War of Independence, Gold Rush).

And the Aztecs and Incas are highly valued in AoE3:DE.

Many players wanted the Mexicas and Incas in AoE IV.

I ask because when I create concepts, I like to include the bibliography from which I obtained the information, so I like to look for official books, from the basic sources where history is known, or archaeology.

For example, for the Aztecs, the main source of religion is the work of Sahagun; and then the archaeological finds from the main temples.

In the case of the Incas, they are the chronicles of the Conquistadores.

If in Georgia, or Russia, or Turky, (whichever is the place you live), you have a official book or founts to know more of their history, would be good to know.

I’ve been researching them, and I’ll share what I found with you in other post.

About Caucasus

At least for Age of Empires IV, most major civs are based on kingdoms from the Middle Ages and early modern period, with a cultural identity that remains to this day, either in their descendants (Rus’ → Russia, Ottomans → Turks) or in memory (Byzantines, Order of the Dragon).

They are not based on races or ethnic groups as in AoE2.

Therefore, for Circassians, you would need to find kingdoms or confederations that existed during the game’s time period to represent them. And that have at least 1 unique unit.


Prologue: Circassia before the Fall of Rome

There was a greek Kingdom named the “Bhosporus Kingdom” (438 A.C.- 376 A.D), in Crimea and Circassian region, with Scythians tribes in their borders.

But between 300 and 400 AD, the area of ​​Cirsassia was completely destroyed by the Huns. Its entire population was killed and all its buildings destroyed, leaving nothing but ruins.

The Goths themselves (Scandinavians from Sweden who migrated here), who were their neighbors, had to flee to continental Europe for fear of the Huns.

According to the book “WHY ABKHAZIA IS GEORGIA”, during the early Middle Ages (400-700 AD), there was no specific kingdom for the Circassians by fault of the Huns destruction; most lived in independent tribes (Alans, Durdzuks, Circassians, Khazars) who were slaves of the Huns hordes.

When Attila die in 453 A.D, many tribes revolt and migrated to many regions, incluedd Circassian, to found their own kingdoms.


Khanate of Khazaria

Around the year 600, a group known as the Khazars founded the Khanate of Khazaria (618–1048) in Circassia, bordering the Roman Empire (Byzantines) to the south and often allying with them against the Persians.

They were rivals of the early Islamic kingdoms, including the Rashidun, Abbasid, and Fatimid Caliphates.

However, their greatest enemy was the Rus’ peoples, especially the Principality of kyiv, which waged war campaigns against the Khanate between 960 and 1024, razing the capital and most of the Khanate’s cities.

It is known that the Rus’ attempted to wipe them out completely, and most of the survivors had to retreat south to the mountainous area bordering the newly founded Georgia.


Kingdom of Georgia (1004 - 1466)

After the Islamic invasion of the Byzantine Empire (634), the inhabitants of Circassia also faced the possibility of being invaded, and they were.

After 300 years of rule, a rebellion against the Abbasid Empire began. Under the leadership of the Bagrationi Dynasty, many of the Circassians joined the Iveri and founded the Kingdom of Georgia in 1004 AD.

The kingdom reached its peak during the so-called “Golden Age of Georgia,” founded by David IV in 1122, with Tamar the Great as its last representative monarch until 1213.

Georgia was invaded by the Mongols, defeated, and converted into their vassal state in 1238. However, the Ilkhanate was not well-organized administratively, civil wars erupted, and it fragmented in 1335, leaving the Georgians free again.

However, the Georgians were unable to fully restore their kingdom, as in 1380, Tamerlane, seeking the title of ghazi, invaded Georgia several times (seven campaigns over twenty years), besieging the capital and devastating the country, committing a genocide of the Georgians.

The Georgians would put up a fierce resistance to Tamerlane, being one of the nations that rebelled and defeated his armies several times, but they eventually surrendered after the seventh invasion.

After Tamerlane’s death in 1405, there was little political unity in what remained of Georgia, and after a civil war in 1465, the kingdom was officially divided into three smaller kingdoms and five principalities.


Alania

The Alans are curious. They originated as one of the barbarian peoples who migrated from Eastern Europe to the Roman Empire, first fleeing the Huns, then becoming their vassals, more out of fear than loyalty, and then rebelling against the Huns after Attila’s death to gain their freedom.

Once free, they went in search of their own lands. They apparently migrated to the Caucasus region (previously devastated by Attila) and founded the Kingdom of Alania (~850 AD - 1240 AD).

It is known that the Alans fought alongside trained war dogs, of the so-called Alana breed. It is believed that modern Alans are descendants of these dogs.

The Christianized kingdom was a neighbor of Georgia, and they often allied against the Arabs and the incursions of the Pechenegs and Kipchaks.

They would also be fragmented due to civil wars following the Mongol invasions of 1238, and the betrayal of many royal members, who conspired with the Mongol invaders. The Mongols would include many Alan soldiers in their Keshig, or royal guard.


Golden Horde

During 1240-1395, the Golden Horde would take over the Caucasus region.

After Tamerlane invaded Russia to attack Toktamish, leader of the Golden Horde, the towns in the area were also plundered.


Circassia (1427-1452)

After the disintegration of the Kingdom of Georgia, King Inal the Great unified the Circassian peoples of the area and, in a series of military campaigns against Georgians, Tatars, and Genoese, created the Kingdom of Circassia.

The kingdom did not last long, as he divided it among his many sons, and these principalities remained independent until the subsequent events of his war with Russia.


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???
The point?

I am just not biased in favor or against caucasian nations