New Civs Discusion and potential Changes (Sicilians/ Burgundians)

Nice analysis.

They could cap the number of serjents per tc and /or limit the number of tcs further. Swapping the techs around knee caps one of the intents of the tech and that is to provide a rapidly trained force early in the game and this means defensive force as well. If you’ve boomed on 3 tc 30 serjents is still worthwhile when someone rolls into your base. Heck even 20 is worthwhile.

Wrt the donjons. Instead of a trush you do a castle age push. Serjents are literally mini Huskarls and the only unit that can repair without dying to arrow fire or even be pushed off (vils stop working when attacked)

Also donjons have more hp and fire extra arrows even without garrisoning(from castle age they can fire up to 7 arrows with garrisons, and a whopping 11 in imperial). Meaning they are more likely to beat other twrs in a face to face. Serjents can be sent forward to kick opposing repair vils off enemy twrs without risking death.

They also have a very unique " m@a rush" in the form of a donjon rush instead.

You save 100 w on rax. All the food and gold on m@a tech. And the serjent is vastly superior at fighting vils thanks to its higher armour (higher armour always has an even greater effect the lower the damage being dealt)

I think sic can have their oppressive mechanics toned down. But they almost need them to make up for literally almost zero eco bonus and no top tier unit.

I think the “give gold” techs are boring and unbalanced, both sicilian and burgundian ones.
Devs should figure out funnier and BALANCED techs, in my opinion.

Well i wouldnt say they unbalanced atm, at least not in a 1v1 in which you normaly wont have tousend of Foods, but I would agree that they kinda boring.

The Burgundian is kinda nice, because you have a mechanic to play around, because you need a lot of Food to make it worth and on the other hand want it early for the Gold trickle, the Sicilian one seems kinda weak tbh. With 80 pop Military you would get around 1200 Gold, but the Tech costs 600 Gold itself. Its basicly a weird Paper Money Tech.

The “boring” part for me is that I dont understand why Sicilians have this one. I dont see any Synergy with the rest of their Tech Tree or Bonuses in this one.
By the fact that the Civ is all about their Unique Unit and/ or their Donjons something for them would be nice.

As said before I think the Serjant is a bit expensiv for its value (Compared to Champs; Malian Champs with same pierce armor), so a Unique tech that would make them cheaper might be nice. Or to give the possibility to be produced from Baracks. This way Donjons would be more of the Feudal to Castle Age production Building, and later in Post Imp they could focus on their Infantery production instead of Stone.

My suggestions to take a first stab at balancing the Coustillier. Its charge bonus almost certainly needs a nerf, and maybe the concept is inherently broken, but I tried to balance the unit without touching the charged attack.

Cost: 55F 55G → 70F 70G
HP: 115 (145 Elite) → 100 (130 Elite)
Armor: 2 Melee 2 Pierce → 1 Melee 1 Pierce
RoF: 1.9 → 2.1

Since Coustillier are supposed to be medium cav, I tried to mimic the Tarkan UU.
This unit provides insane value, so this is a hard nerf. They’re now resource equivalent to Mamelukes, but more food heavy to burden early Castle production.
Base form’s HP is lowered to 100 (matching Tarkans) and the elite’s HP is lowered to match the drop.
Further pushing the medium cavalry concept, armor is 1/1 to make it no longer equal to the Knight/Cavalier, and to mimic the Tarkan (which has 1 melee armor).
Finally the Rate of Fire is lowered to match the Tarkan, if only to reduce its power even further in sustained combat.

I don’t like the way the First Crusade works for the Sicilians. Not only do I think it is too strong, it, too, is tactically not very interesting, though I think this could easily be improved in a balance change.

You would want to work the research in a way that players need to think about the amount of Town Centers they want to build before going for the First Crusade. Right now, I don’t think that is the case. You always want to build five Town Centers before doing the research. Each additional Town Center up to five is always worth it for the following reason. If X is lower than 5 and the First Crusade is worth to research after building X Town Centers, then in comparison, building X + 1 Town Centers gives you 10 extra Sergeants for the price of 275 wood, 100 stone (27.5 wood and 10 stone per Sergeant) and you get an extra Town Center, so that would be worth it even more. The result is one-dimensional play from the Sicilian player: just build five Town Centers and research First Crusade.

The solution, I think, is to lower the number of Serjeants per Town Center and to increase the maximum number of Town Centers the Serjeants can spawn from. For example, the research could be: “Upon researching, each Town Center (up to 10) spawns a one-time group of 5 Serjeants”. This would make the number of Town Centers to build more of a tactical decision. I doubt it is worthwhile every time to build 10 Town Centers before going for the research. If this would cause the technology to be used too little, then the tech can be buffed by decreasing the cost a little bit.

1 Like

I guess I will be the odd one out:

Coustilliers: Keep their charge attack but reduce their stats. Align their hp with the Boyars and reduce their attack by 1. They should be glass cannons/snipers. Currently, they are beefy snipers.

Sicilians: I like both their UT and generally they are balanced. You can research them, First Crusade and then Scutage, you basically get back all the gold you spent. But I have no objections for switching them around.

All this based on initial impressions.

1 Like

Hi Sylne4r,

really like your breakdown and suggestions. Maybe a few things to add/change:

  • As you said it’s hard to judge yet if Flemish Revolution is too strong or not. Anyway I would like to forward an idea I saw earlier which I would really like there: What to do about the Flemish Revolution?
  • I totally agree with you on the Costilliers charge attack. The biggest problem I see is that is one-shots vilagers and crossbows in castle age and also arbalest in imperial age. The segond big problem I see is less in early castle age where less units are around and micro is very important and “easy” (compared to the lategame). Some combination of reduced attack, recharge time, unit speed may do the trick.
  • However I would like to introduce another idea: What if the charge attack only works against cavalry units instead of all units, making them the “unique burgundian camels”? This would also suit my imagination of what this charge represents: The middle age tournaments where two knights running towards each other with a huge lance in their hand.


  • Agree with all you said.
  • What could possibly reduce that heavy power spike a little is if you can research the tech to then produce an amount of Sergants for free in your town centers? So to make the units it occupies TC-time which slows down your vilager production. The amount of units could also be indepenent of how many TCs you got since the only difference is how fast you get your units or how much eco (vils-production) you are willing to sacrifice in the meantime.
  • Just one thing that comes in mind when thinking about Sicilians: Shouldn’t they have a little more bonuses towards water than just their team bonus?

To your Questions:
1: What do you think of the New Civs, do you agree with my First Impressions:

  • I don’t like the one-time use techs with the instant power spike
  • Overall the charge attack or the tower-building-sergeants are a nice idea that can be good if they can manage to properly balance them

2: What do you guys think about my potential Problems and potential Solutions/ Changes to the Civs:

  • See above

3: If you like the idea to give the Sicilians the Team Bonus to get a little bit of Stone from Relics which Team bonus would you then give to the Burgandians?

  • I’m fine with a team bonus that is related to water for sicilians.

Have a nice day :slight_smile:

Your cost and HP suggestions are good, not sure about the armor and the RoF
I would reduce the charge attack a little bit
I was watching a game between Burgundians and Sarracens. Sarracens was controlling the game until the Coustillier showed up and wrecked all the camels, monks and trebs in the area. Amazing OP UU

Hi DoenerMc,

thanks for your detailed response, its nice to see someone responding this well thought to my very big Text wall.

To respond a bit to your response now after i played the new Civs the last few Days:


  • I still cant really judge the Flemish Revolution. Its super all in, and there might exist a very strong fast Imp Flemish Rush strat, but for now I hadnt a Game as such. I think the Fact its an Imp Tech makes a Rush pretty Hard, an the fact its all Infantery very situational. After all a Infantery all in is much stronger vs an enemy going Cav then against an enemy with Archers. For now I rarely used it because losing all your Vils is after all a huge deal so we will have to see about this Tech.

  • For the Costilliers are many nice suggestions out by now, but they all depend on what kind of Unit it should be. The suggestions to reduce its Pierce Armor and Hp would be good vs Archers, a reduced Charge Attack might be good for melee Units (especially Halbs) and a move speed penalty to counter them by Cav. All things might work, but depend on what the Devs want the Unit to be. (btw atm the Charge attack does double Dmg vs Archer. This way even with a reduced Charge Dmg they would still be very good vs Archers)

  • All in all except their Unique Unit the Burgandians seem kinda fine. I played some Games in which i avoided their UU on purpose and they didnt feelt OP this way. The Cavalier in Castle Age is fairly Balanced by the Lack of Bloodlines and the Strong early Game Powerspike of Cavalier and Paladin is then followed by a fall of in Post Imp of their Cav, kinda forcing them into other Options like their good Halbs, HC and so on.
    The Eco Bonus is still hard to judge imo. Its hard to get a good BO to get the Upgrade in Dark Age without any big loses so time will tell if their is an abusive BO found out in the future, like it had been with the Lithuanian Drush a few Months after release.


  • The First Crusade will be nerfed probably. The most important thing for me is not how it will be, but what their compensation will be. Without the First Crusade the Civ dont feels all that special atm by the Games i played. Donjons are as i predicted to expensive for a Feudal Age Tower Rush and their Eco Bonus is not on paar with other Eco bonuses, because it has no effect before early Castle Age (the first Horse Collar Farms normaly run out right after reaching Castle Age)
    And as my Math above shows its not even this much then compared to other good Eco bonuses.

On top of that their Tech tree dont has a good “main” Unit to base your army around except the Serjant, which is hard to mass, because you either need Castles or Donjons, which are both very expensive.

I think with a Nerf to the first Crusade they will need a Buff somewhere else, and considering their whole Civ design is around the Serjant, I think a buff the the Serjant (not in stats, but in accessibility) might be nice.
As stated above I think the 2 main problems of the Serjant are its costs and the fact it needs a Stone Building. I would like to compare it to a Champion instead of another Unique Infantery Unit like a Berserk/ Wood Raider/ Tk for the reason that all other Civs with a Unique Infantery Unit have different Options in their Tech tree and arent depending on their UU because of that. (Teuton have good Halb/ Pala/ Siege; Celts good Siege/ Halbs; Viking good Arbs/ Siege/ Champions and so on)
This way the Serjant is more the Bulk of their Army and by this needs to be accessible.

→ My 3 Main Idears would still be:
1: reducing its Cost a bit (for example 55/30 or 55/25 to get a bit closer to Champions 45/20)
2: giving a Bonus which makes it easier to produce many Donjons like a passive stone bonus or exchanging the Imp UT with another one that makes Donjons more accessible (for example by reducing its cost or giving Stone instead of Gold) (Imo not the best way because this way the Player could build Donjons all over the Enemy Base in Post Imp which would be frustrating to play against)
3: (my preferred Idear) giving a bonus which makes Serjants faster to produce (probably by another Imp UT, because the current UT feels very underwhelming and boring).
One option would be a Tech that lowers the production time of Serjants in Donjons (atm they produce in 20 seconds, Champs in Barracks do in 21) or to give them the ability to produce Serjants out of Barracks like Huns/ Goths can do. This way the Donjon would more be about a weird Tower Rush Strat or a Tower Push with Serjants and less of a production building, giving the Donjon a higher focus on its unique abilities in Feudal/ Castle Age.

I think Option 1 must happen no matter what and in addition to option one either 2 or 3, because the unit is only accessible if its Cost isnt to High and its production isnt limited to much by its Building, but as said i would prefer a combination of option 1 and 3, because option 2 might end in a frustrating Imp Tower Push Strat.

  • “Shouldnt they have more Bonuses to Water”
    I understand the thinking, (and i havent tested them on Water yet) but they might be good on Water.
    Their Water tech tree is pretty good with a wide array of options. Their Bonus to get more food from the farm upgrades is also not bad on water maps, because you always make 6-8 farms in Feudal Age to get to Castle which then last a bit longer, which can help to get faster to Imp. Also the Bonus safes some Wood which is not bad on Island, which can run out of Wood in the Late Game.

Over all I would say they are above average on Water, but cant contest with the top tier water Civs like Italians, Vikings and so on, but might be able to go punch for punch with other non top tier Water Civs like Malay. If you want them to be top tier then they might need another Team Bonus.
The Team Bonus i probably designed to transport some Serjants to then build Donjons, but as said I doubt Donjns being a valid Feudal Age Strat, and until Castle Age Water Control (Naval War) is to Important to lose it.

To the Question responses:

1: “I dont like the 1 time use Techs”
Me neither. They dont feel exciting because you dont feel to get anything special out of it. But I would say I like Vine Fields the most, because it has a mechanic to play around → More Food = more value → its good to wait longer tog et it, but then you lose out on the passive Gold after the research for the time period.

3: I would agree a Water Bonus seems fitting for Sicilians, but the transport Bonus feels kinda useless on Games like 1v1 Island. After all Transports are mainly used for sneaks instead of going trough the enemy Army. But there might be an interesting Strat to mix in some Transports into your army to soak up some Dmg in the late Game, similar to the way people mix in Rams vs Archers. Sadly Water maps are very snowballing which might make a bonus with early Game use more useful.

Have a nice Day :slight_smile:

Costelliers stats arent op at all, dont fix what is not broken, for now the only nerf they need is that ridiculous charge bonus. Reducing the charge bonus to half and the recharge time 30 or 40% would be a nice start

The new civs are not very strong at all. Outside of the Flemish Revolution UT, I have seen no balance issues.

1 Like

Y i agree they arent overall to strong, both just have 1 pretty broken thing atm:

The Charge Attack Unit (Just to much Charge dmg atm for its cost/ stats)

First Crusade (getting 50 Units for the cost of 10)

If these 2 things get nerfed then Burgundians might be fine I think, and Sicilians might need a buff as i stated above


First Crusade is OK, but maybe they should restrict it to 10 Serjeants per TC, max 3 TCs.

Burgundians have a few more issues, they should lose Husbandry, and possibly Hussar.
Flemish Militia also needs a nerf, they should not be stronger than a Champion, but rather somewhere in between a Champ and a Pike.

1 Like

These civs are just messy and do not belong to Age Of Empires II.

No, they fit in alright.

They are actually very conservatively designed.

Btw because i didnt mentioned yet one very important thing why I also compare Serjants to Champs:

They are very equal Combat wise:

Champ does 10 Dmg per Hit to Elite Serjant → 75 Hp → Kills it in 8 Hits

Elite Serjant does 11 Dmg per Hit to Champion → 70 HP → Kills it in 7 Hits.

Serjant cost 75% more Gold and 15 more Food then Champs and cant be mass produced out of Barracks → Champs are a very good counter to Serjant

(Knight line is also very good very Serjant because of its high armor vs their low Attack as long as there arent to many Halbs)


I dont think removing Husbandry and Hussar would be good. Their Cav is already not very strong in Imp because of their lack of Bloodlines. Their Cavalier tech in Castle Age basicly gives them + 2 Attack for a good Castle Age powerspike, but they then fall of in lategame after their early Paladin powerspike, because their Cav is worse of without Bloodline.

The Coustillier might be nerfed by making it slower, but then a nerf to its speed specifically might be better instead of removing Husbandry, which would also affect their Knight line.

Flemish Milita is still to early to judge I think. I havnt seen yet a single Game in which the Tech was op, but it might have the potential for some crazy all in Strats. Time will tell.
But their stats seem fine. They are a bit weaker then Champs, with same armor, 5 more Hp but 1 less Dmg. They have a Bonus dmg vs Cav, but this isnt as important for an Infantery Unit, because if you have Inf upgrades you normaly can mix in Halbs anyways. Also they cost fairly more then Champs with their 60 F 25 G compared to Champs with 45F 20 G (with Supplies). (also can only be produced from TCs which is also a big disadvantage over Champs + Halbs.

1 Like

I disagree, they get 50% costed Paladin upgrade, which already allows you to buy plenty of Paladins.
Couple that with Bunrgundian Vineyards UT, and they have perpetually assured Paladin production, becvause they never run out of Food or Gold.

Burgundians basically have Trash Paladin, since they can always get a few. This is not OP, but makes Hussar a luxury item, which they really should not have.

Removing Husbandry would fix a lot of issues with the Costillier that people have, and allow them to be tanked down much more effectively.
When you already get a comparative to Lithuanians Knights without even having to get 2 Relics (no Monk Gold expenditure and fighting over Relics), and for just more 150 Gold than Bloodlines, you already have way too good a deal on your Stables units.

I would remove Husbandry and Hussar from Burgundians, and rebalance the Flemish Militia.

Well i don’t like my spears cannot counter Sicilian scouts or Coustilliers one shot Cavalry Archers. They’re clearly strong and arguably OP.

Correct me if i’m wrong but you are the one claiming new civs gonna have turk-tier trash. You justified this bonuses with bad trash but now you’re still defending these civs and their bonuses even they show up with much better trash units than you’ve expected.

I’m sorry but at this point feel like i cannot trust your judgement.

New civs still not OP, sorry. And yes, they should have had bad Trash.
I still want Burgundians to lose Hussar, for example.