I posted this idea in another thread, but maybe it might get more traction here:
How about limiting the Flemish Revolution tech to spawn only 50 Militia + the ability to train them @ TCs?
So a cav civ with no BL or Husbandry? I’m the only one that finds it weird?
I fell their stable are great with the discount and no BL, also cavalier is not only more expensive, but also a lot slower to research … while no BL make light cav rush a little less viable. So really this bonus shine in late castle and specially in early imp. I really think thats ok.
Coustilliers. well. they are op, 40 charge is broken, and 2x against archers is beyond broken. I’m sure they will get a nice fix for them, I would prefer something like 20 or 25 top.
I don’t like the flemish revolution UT, is hard to balance because it is an all in move… you are not supposed to create FM so the cost means nothing, make FM too weak and no one would ever research them,make FM too strong and how do anyone stop +100 of them…
Sicilians. i would nerf first crusade a little, 8 per TC is more than enough
There’re bad doubts that the new civils are made to be bought by being very-cheating and aren’t getting re-balanced for better sales(in the reason that people want to get extra advantages from cheat civils) 
Dont worrie this wont ever happen with any new Civ, no matter if now or in the future.
AoE2 trys to build up itself as an ESports Game. For ESport Games balancing is very important, for the Players as well as for the Viewers.
And high viewer numbers can produce a lot of money from sponsoring, Merch and so on.
Also as most people here said:
The new Civs dont seem OP except the Coustillier of Burgundians and the first Crusade of Sicilians.
Once this things get nerfed the Civs might be ok or even weak.
(By my Games I would say Burgundians is playable without Coustillier, but Sicilians will probably rly need a buff without an op First Crusade, because of their limited Tech Tree and limited UU [limited by Cost and production building [look my post to DounerMc above]])
First Crusade nerf is easy, make it 10 Serjeants from a max of 3 TCs, and call it a day.
Sicilians are not even a weak civ, or lack any options. You get full Barracks, anti-Pike Cavaliers, and Arbalests with Bracer, which is a much better round of options than Goths or Aztecs get.
hera love to Exaggerate every new civ or buffs of civs.
news civs not that strong like everyone saying, only broken things is coustillier’s charge damage and first crusade. other things okay.
also dlc civs should be little better than average, cause you pay extra money for them. if they made them strong for better sales then will nerf them very bad, i won’t be pleased. this is fraud, please leave my new civs strong
No, they should be average.
The new civs are not even very strong to begin with, and Franks still wipes the floor with both of them, at present, even after the Berry nerf.
so why people will pay money for a boring, weak civs. it is cheating to make them nerfed, cause they showed them like that to be purchasable
Weak does not mean boring.
You should never pay for power, you pay for new civs, because you want new civs, not more powerful civs.
It is not, rather it would be cheating to keep them unbalanced. Everything in a competitive game must be balanced, and no player should have a purchaseable advantage over another.
I think DLCs should have more stuff: More animals, terrain, trees, architecture sets etc.
The Sicilian Tech tree is bad compared to something like Aztec or Chinese for 2 reasons:
1: They dont have 1 go to Unit which is top tier. Aztec have Eagels as the main force of their Army while Chinese have fully upgraded Archers with Thumb Ring, which increases Attackspeed by 18%, which is huge.
Sicilians have neither Top Tier Archers nor Top Tier Cav, and Inf cant be used before Imp.
On top of that Civs with an open Tech tree like Chinese have another advantage:
VERY strong eco. Chinese tech tree can be compared to Sicilians. Both have Cavalier, but no Hussar/ paladin, both no BBC, Both Arbs (but Chinese better one).
So in theory they can use their open Tech tree to switch around and go for counter Units, but the difference is Chinese can, Sicilians cant:
Chinese have 2 top tier Eco bonuses: 3 more Vils and researches are cheaper.
With the strong eco they can get enough Numbers in and with cheaper techs they can easier tech switch to use their wide Tech tree, Sicilians cant do both.
And if you dont have a top tier Unit like Frankish Knights or Mayan Archers (2 Top tier Arabia Civs) then you need a top tier Eco to make up for the lack in Units with an advantage in Numbers/ tech with your Eco, like Chinese do (another Top tier Arabia Civ).
Sicilians only Eco bonus is rather Weak (as explained in my original Post), so it wil be hard to use an open tech tree, because you need to research many Techs to use it, which costs many Resources. A strong go to Unit is better with weaker Ecos like Lithuanian Knights, Goth Inf or Brit Archer (and even there Brit Eco Bonus is probably stronger because of its Dark Age value).
Yes, Sicilians have a stronger Tower on the defense, an easily accessible UU, anti-Spearman Scouts, and anti-Pikeman Cavaliers.
Sicilians are supposed to play aggressively, and make use of the reduced bonus damage they take.
Imp Age Sicilian Cavaliers are a force to be reckoned with, specially if backed up by Bracer Arbalests, and Serjeants.
While it is true that Sicilians lose steam faster than Aztecs and Chinese, they do have a lot of options to compensate, and can play with Barracks, Stables, or Archery Range units, almost on their own.
You kinda ignored my point.
So again, the 2 Points were:
Sicilians dont have something like this, and because of this not the Money to afford it.
And a simple example why a few safed Res on Techs matter a lot:
Tatars are held as a Top Tier Cav Archer Civ because they get Thumb Ring for free, while Japanese, who have fully Upgraded Cav Archer, never go Cav Archer. Just saving this 500 Res in Castle Age makes this difference. (also Parthian Tactics later on ofc)
Why they dont have one strong option:
Arbs lack Blacksmith Upgrades as well as the VERY important Thumb Ring, which makes them no strong Post Imp Main Option, but more of a suuport Unit or suited in Castle Age.
Having Cavalier is nothing Special. Every Civ except Indian/ Saracan has Cavalier. THey might be fully upgraded, but thats also not very strong without any useful Bonus.
You call them “anti Pikeman” which is false. They arent as terrible vs Halbs as normal Cav, but still very bad cost wise.
Its like saying Cataphracts counter Halbs. Cataphracts get half the Bonus Dmg from Halb (same as Sicilian), but also deal AoE Dmg as well as + 12 Dmg vs Halbs, which Sicilian Cav doesnt.
And even with the Bonus Dmg Halbs are still the best Counter to Cataphracts.
And Infantery (Barrack) isnt playable (before Post Imp)
Longswords get Countered to easily by Crossbow and even lose vs Knights on equal Resources (Both Crossbow and Knights are the Castle Age meta Unit you play against in 99% of all games).
In Imp this Fact doesnt Changes, the only Change is that spamming Halbs in Imp is a valid strat, if the Eco is strong enough to support the Lemming train.
(Ofc their Halbs get less Bonus Dmg from Archers, but they still have less Hp and Pierce Armor then Champs, who also die very easily to Archers, without getting any Bonus Dmg at all)
And in Imp Champs are only used to counter Trash Units, because they still die to easily against Archer or HC.
The only exception might be Malian Champs which can fight Archers with their pierce Armor or Huskarl (who are no Champs)
With that in mind their only Unit in their tech Tree which can carrie their Army is the Serjant, which is very hard to mass, cause you will need to mas up 200 Stone production Buildings, which then the Enemy can Counter with cheaper Champions out of 175 W Barracks, which already trade cost efficient and then will also be in greater Numbers because Barracks > 200 Stone Production Building.
To get to your other Points:
“Sicilians have a stronger Tower on the defense”
In which case?
In Castle Age/ imp its stronger then a Tower, but Towers arent used in Castle/ imp in 1v1.
Towers are used in Feudal Age for Trush.
In Feudal Age their Towers are weaker because you pay an aditional 75 Stone for only 300 HP.
This means you can build less Counter Towers to Counter an enemy Trush, which makes you mroe vulnerable to Trush. Also they are more costly to repair and are easier to attack with Vils because they are 4 Tiles big (easier to Surround). Both can make you lose Tower Wars.
The UU is more accesibale then other UU, but as said not easy enough. probably 90% of all UU are never used in 1v1, even when they are strong, because creating them out of Stone Buildings is a to big penalty compared to normal Units. They only used if they are super strong (f.E. Conqus) or very accessible (f.E Huskalr or Tarkan).
As long as Serjants arent produced much faster in Imp or out of Barack (both with another Unique Imp tech; their current UT in Imp is pretty underwhelming and boring, which would mean no harm to exchange it) they will be to easy to counter with Mass Champs from Baracks, because they will get outproduced in Numbers as well in Cost, which makes them not good enough of an option.
If it stays as it is the playstyle will mostlikely be to use First Crusade to get a big Number of them, then run forward and produce Donjons in the enemy Base with the big Army and then produce as many Serjants out of these new Donjons as possible. This would be a super all in strat, which might not be bad, but if its the Civs only really good option it will be bad, because then everyone will see it coming and counter in advance.
Not after their First Crusade. Also Cavalier + Arbs are 2 Gold expensive Units and in Imp you start to run out of Gold which makes this Comp unplayable.
If you want them to be played in Imp without a First Crusade all in then their Serjants must be easier to build up in mass and be cheaper to be able to compete with Champs, in accessibility as well as Resource value
(Keep in mind all I sayed is considered for 1v1 out of my perspective around 1500 1v1 Elo. Slower Games at a lower Elo might use more Unique Units like Longbows, because a slower played Game doesnt punishes production time and resource value as much as faster paced ones. (for example noone uses Longbows normally, despite being better stat wise as well as costing less Gold, but are just produced to slowly from a castle compared to Arbs from an Archery))
I think their both bonuses and unique techs are weird. I am giving numbers for example.
For Burgundians, make revolution cheaper and it doesn’t arm villagers anymore. Do you want a interesting unit than standart units? Make Flemish militia can be created multiple buildings (like Town Centers, Barracks, Archery Ranges and Stables for example).
For Castle Age tech remove it add something like gives pike-line 20 HP. It will be expensive. If it’s better make this Imp tech (Flemish one to Castle) make weak version of Flemish militia for Castle Age and you research elite upgrade in Imp.
For Sicilians, fast units are interesting but they get nearly free for 50 units. Make it 7 for 5 town centers (35 total) and give them more cost if you really want this (as nerf suggested in this topic, I personally don’t touch TC count). If you don’t, give a tech it makes your donjons stronger (you can nerf and let them pay for stat in this tech if you want to or work rate can be upgraded in this tech).
Remove team tech, give a tech gives 20 HP to Skirms. They still lack last armour and Thumb Ring (effects nearly none, I know).
Also Burgundian Team Bonus too weird, Sicilian team bonus Saracen transport bonus. You can put Line of Sight bonus as a team bonus. Early eco techs must be a little expensive if you are researching earlier because you have to advance to the Imp to get these techs when you are booming. But for Burgundians they don’t need to pay 1000 food and 800 gold.
Sicilian bonus damage is like Tatar high elevation bonus. 50% a lot make it 33 or 25 it’s still strong. They don’t need a lot of change because I think Sicilians aren’t OP like Burgundians. Nerf Burgundian unique unit. There is nice suggestions for the nerf in this topic.
Also their late game was a little bad (lacking a lot of tech. So I thought nerfing early game and removing unique techs and giving bonus to trash units.
Or if your civ is supposed to be adaptable, which Sicilians are.
They have Bracer Arbalest (like Aztecs do), anti-Pike Cavalier, FU Champs and Halbs, and decent Siege.
Sicilians have plenty of ways to go in their Tech Tree, they are just not the laser-focused, one-trick type of civ that Goths and Franks are.
Imp Age Sicilians Cavalier laughs at Halberdiers, and even Heavy Camels are no so good a counter.
Pair them up with Serjeants or Arbalests, and they are a very strong force.
A Cavalier-Cataphract is surely a strong option!
you mean besides the cavalry that laugh at anti cavalry units or archers that laugh at skirms?
they lack 1 blacksmith upgrade, not multiple, and thumb ring is important but you can live without it, several other civs go arbs without, like the Aztecs
well yeah, that’s why you support them, with say skirms. they still hold up better against halbs then even paladins do, food for though. it takes 7 halb hits to take a sicilian cavalier down. that’s two more then a paladin.
lol what? halb may be the most cost effective counter to cataphract, but even thats questionable, if your opponent gets 20 elite cataphracts with logistica, even 65 japanese halbs (the best halbs in the game) won’t take them down. you’re better off going archer against them.
Burgundians: The UU is broken and just that, other than them they are an average civ, in team games other pocket civs are way better even with cavalier and early imp paladin, early eco upgrades means you are delaying your army and losing map control. They might be good on arena but I don’t really know because nobody cares about arena.
Sicilians: They are not good, feel like a slightly better goths, Donjoun is too expensive and the civ is weak to tower rushes, weak tech tree, really bad at tgs, the only good things are the UU and UT but take in mind that if you want to rely on that you need a castle, 5 TCS, infantry upgrades and for a more effectiveness imp and elite upgrades, all this while surviving feudal and castle age without any strong eco or military bonus. The only map I got them to work right now is African Clearing/Beduins.
More like a slower Goths, with better Archery Range and Stables, but worse Infantry.
Goths absolutely kick the can with Sicilians, in early aggression and the Castle Age.
You again didnt adressed a single thing of what i sayed and just ignored it, so pls instead of ignoring my Arguments try to dismiss them, otherwise this Discussion makes no sense.
So there again (Detailed Version is above):
No, because you need to be able to pay for the Tech switch. Blacksmith Upgrades and Barack/ Stable Techs arent free. Thats why in 1v1 most Civs dont Tech switch a lot except a Civ like Chinese, with an amazing Eco Bonus to do so. For example Siege is more used vs Archers then Skirms, because Skirms need 4 Upgrades in Castle Age to be useful, Siege 0. Same with Monks over Pikes vs Cav.
And Sicilians have a very medium Eco Bonus, not as bad as Magyars (without anyone), but still worse then most used Civs.
So pls tell me how they can use their wide Tech Tree without a strong Eco Bonus to have enough resources to pay for these Techs in 1v1 RM (not in 4v4 Black Forest in which Resources dont matter).
Attack my Argument.
As said before no Thumb Ring Arbs are not a Post Imp main Unit Option. Thumb Ring dont matters as much in Castle Age, but does in Imp.
Just take a look at Aztec:
They play Archers and Crossbow in castle Age, but when they reach Imp the transition into Eagels, which is their Main Army Unit. They dont build a lot Arbs anymore, and just get all Upgrades to make the 40 Crossbow they still have stronger. Then they try to keep them alive to counter potential Champions (which counter their Eagels). The Main Army of Aztec in Imp is Eagels and Pikes, the Arbs are only used as a support Unit to Counter enemy Infantery, which can be used to Counter their Eagle/ pike composition.
The only Civs which mainly use Arbs in Imp are Civs with Thumb Ring and all Upgrades (like Byz) or with Archer Bonuses (like Brits).
Again pls Attack this Argument of why it should be different for Sicilians then for any other Civ. And before you say because they arent countered by Skirms, they are. They dont die as quickly, but still get a lot of Dmg from them. Also you then lose Gold to Trash Units which is always bad.
Also in Imp common Counter to Arbs are Paladin or Onager, which both have no bonus Dmg.
I explained often enough now that you wont get good trades vs Halbs with Cav. They still get 16 Bonus dmg which is massiv AND you trade Gold for Trash Units. As said even Catas dont trade good vs Halbs, and they have a 12 Dmg Bonus as well as AoE Dmg, which Cavaliers dont.
If you Fight 40 Halbs with 20 Cavalier, then the Halb Player used less Resources then you, no Gold and still won the Fight, so pls Attack my Argument by saying how this is a good fight or “anti Halb”.
FU Champs are not used in over 90% of all Games, because they are only a counter to Trash Units and Eagels. The 2 most common Imp Main Units are Arbs or Paladin and Champs lose to both. The only Civs who dont use one of these are either Siege Civs like Celts (who then have Scorps) or Goths (who wont lose vs FU Champs without a Bonus).
Their Halbs are decent, but not a Main Unit, more a Support Unit. You need something to compliment your Halbs with, or you just lose to Archers, Scorps or Champs.
Halbs can be used to take down enemy Cav, but then you need something against Archers like Paladins, good Arbs, or a Pierce Armor Inf like Malian Champs/ Huskarl.
Pls Attack my Argument and tell me how Sicilians win vs a common Unit Comp like Hussar + CA or Arbs + Halbs or Arbs + Eagle or Scorps + Halbs or Light Cav + Arbs based on their Barracks. Both their Halbs as well as their Champs just die to any Range Unit.
Their Siege is decent, but Siege alone cant be a main Unit, without a strong Support Unit and/ or a Bonus.
The Only Civs who really use any Siege Unit except Rams in Mass (mass Scorps or mass Onager) are Celts, Slavs, Khmer and Teutons. All of these Civs have either a very strong Bonus to their Siege and/ or their Halbs.
Sicilians dont.
As comparison: A Civ like Chinese or Vikings, who also have the same Siege Workshop Tech Tree never go heavy on Siege, and just use it as a support Unit to Support their FU Arbs vs enemy Siege/ Arbs/ Skirms. Also both have open Tech trees with an amazing Eco to be bale to use them, to get back to the argument from before.
Pls now Attack my Argument by explaining why Sicilians should be able to be the only Civ ingame who can go heavy on Siege without any Bonus for it.
Portugese:
Portugese also have Arbs (but FU/ better then Sicilians), FU Infantery (except Squiers) and FU Cavalier and Light Cav, as well as a good Siege Workshop.
They also dont have one go to Unit like Sicilians (except their Arbs) but an open Tech Tree with a bad Eco Bonus.
Because of their Bad Eco they cant use all of their Tech Tree Options and are one of the worst Arabia 1v1 Civs ingame.
Another Example would be Italians and Koreans. Both Similar Tech Tree (but better Archers) and a medium Eco Bonus, but not none like Magyars (Who are actual good because of their focus on Scouts and CA)
Adding 20 Hp to Halbs or Skirms would be pretty broken.
Take for example Vikings who have just 20% more HP. They dont get Halb because Halbs with + 20% would be pretty strong.
Also I dont think that Trash is the Civs Problem. Both Civs have decent Trash.
I would be more in Support of a Tech that suits their identity.
Th Vine yards are good imo. Burgundians are pretty much designed as an all in Civ with their early access to Cavalier and Paladin, but with weaker stats.
They are probably supposed to spike in mid Castle Age with their Cavalier Upgrade, then in early Imp with their Paladin Upgrade, and then again once more with their Vine Yards Gold and if they dont win then with this Gold boost they run out of Steam. Overall a fitting UT for their Design I would say.
The Sicilian Tech dont Suits them as much, because I dont see any design around Power Spikes like the Burgundians, which would make the Gold payment fitting. They look more like a Boom Civ which can play greedy with many Tcs and then defend itself with First Crusade, which would imply a solid Lategame (in which they lack focus yet with their very inaccessible Serjants and no outstanding strong Option in their tech Tree beside the Serjant, which is to expensive).
Also they seem to be designed a lot around their Donjons/ Serjant, so a UT supporting these would fit more then a buff to Trash imo.
I already suggested some potential Changes to the UT to make Serjants more accessible. Just look there New Civs Discusion and potential Changes (Sicilians/ Burgundians) - #30 by Sylne4r
as well as there for more details on the Serjant New Civs Discusion and potential Changes (Sicilians/ Burgundians) - #37 by Sylne4r