New Civs Discusion and potential Changes (Sicilians/ Burgundians)

Easy, just go for any 2 units, like Crossbow + Knights or Crossbow + Pikeman.
You do not need to actually use their entire Tech Tree, just 2 buildings and 2 to 4 unit types.

Sicilians have strong Towers on the defense, so use those aswell, and they auto-upgrade and train your UU.

They purposefully lack a good eco bonus so it is difficult to use their Tech Tree, and they cannot abuse all their options.

They are not supposed to be, they are supposed to be a support unit for Serjeanst or Cavaliers.

Arabia is not the whole game, and Ports are a dedicated Water civ.
Thinks Islands against Vikings, instead of Arabia against Huns.

  • 1:
    As said before Knight + Crossbow is to expensive because both cost to much Gold.
    Also if this combination would work without any Bonus then Portugese and Italians wouldnt have such bad winrates. You still have to pay double the Blacksmith Upgrades as well as get Husbandry, Bloodlines, University and Balistics, compared to a Civ going only Knights or only Crossbows, who can infest these Resources into greater Numbers and then crush you with these.
    But I think it makes no sense to Continue this, because you ignored again my Argument that they dont have the Economy to afford all the Upgrades to go for their wide Tech Tree.

  • 2: As said Arbs cant support Cav or Serjants because you run out of Gold before you have a decent Army. You always support a strong Gold Unit with a Trash Unit for this reason or have a cheaper Gold Unit (like Mayan Archers + Eagels, who also mix in Halbs and Skirms with their Amazing Eco).

  • 3: Arabia is the best Example, because it can translate to most Land Maps.
    And for Water Maps Sicilians will also not be top Tier, because their Tech Tree is fine, but their Bonuses cant compete with Meta Island Civs like Italians, Vikings and so on.

I gave it for example. They lack armour. I know it’s broken like Turkish Genitours.

No, Halbs will not be that broken. Vikings are good civ and has a unique tech gives all infantry bonus damage against Cavalry so they don’t need Halbs that much.

If Teutons +2 Armour and Japanese faster attacking aren’t broken, 20 HP isn’t that broken too.

I lack of good ideas, so it was a small nearly useless idea. But instead of one-time different mechanic unique techs, I would rather stat buffs.

20 more Hp is much more broken then faster Attackspeed or Melee Armour, bcs Halbs dont get countered by Halbs, they get countered by Skirms and Archers. Thats why additional HP is much stronger, because it helps them survive longer against their Counters, who kill them very fast because of their 0 Pierce Armor.

Thats also why Malians dont get Halbs and only Pikeman, because additional Pierce Armor or HP has a much greater effect on the Unit then Melee Armor or Attackspeed (which only matters vs enemy Melee Units)

Or Simple sayed: Units that are strong vs one specific thing but weak against another are not as strong as Units which are Strong overall.
Thats why you basicly never see Teutonic Knights, but always Units like Huskarls.

Thats also why i sayed Sicilians have good Halbs, because they normaly get 3 Bonus Dmg from Skirms/ Arbs, which will get reduced, giving them effectively 1,5 more Pierce Armor [they get 1 and 2 less Dmg in a Cycle, meaning they take 1,5 less by my Tests in the Editor).
That makes them already good, but ofc not as good as Malian Pikes and they still lack a main Unit which can be supported by their Halbs. (Halb + Arbs is no good comp because both die to Skirms and Scorps)

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this is again false. go run the tests. with 20 elite cataphracts with logistica, you’re gonna run over even Japanese habs.

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But you trade Gold for Trash Units which makes it a bad trade. Also Catas are much harder to mass, and most importantly, Cavaliers arent Catas.
After all we were talking about Sicilian Cavaliers, which have less HP, no Bonus Dmg of 12, and no AoE Dmg. They wont trade even close as good as Catas do. They are not anti Pike.
Its like saying Rattan Archers are Anti Skirmisher. They dont trade as bad to Skirms/ Halbs as normal Units would do, but still pretty bad.

Also a Normal Cavalier wins 1v1 vs Halb but loses 1v2. A Sicilian still loses 1v2. Ofc its closer, but considering the fact Halbs cost less then Half the cost of a Cavalier and 0 Gold, a 1 to 2 Ratio is pretty easy to sustain, which shows that they are not “Anti Halb”. They still trade very bad against Halbs, just not as bad. You wont be able to overpower Halbs with Cav as Sicilians.

Also the reduced Bonus Dmg is pretty overrated overall, because in most stages of the Game you wont face Units with Bonus Dmg, as i explained in my Original Post starting this Discussion. Most People only think about Post Imp fully boomed Fights, forgetting that most Games get decided in Feudal/ Castle Age, in which Knights fight vs XBows or each other, and get countered by Monks and Mangos. All Units without Bonuses against each other. (The best case for the Bonus Dmg Bonus might be against Camel Civs, making their Knights better vs Camels, which might make Sicilian a Unique anti Camel Civ. But Camel are cheaper so its hard to judge the teaming up effect up Numbers advantage, bcs my 6 to 7 Test was pretty close)

Eco Bonuses are by far the most important Bonuses, after that Bonuses upgrading meta Units like Archer/ Knight/ Scout/ Camel line.
Both things Sicilians are lacking (about their Eco Bonus look the Math I did in the original Post, explaining why their Farm bonus is pretty weak compared to Teuton Farm Bonus, which works the most similar (who are not even an S Tier Civ).)