New italians after the update and further ideas for the next ones

It would make Italians skirms more cost efficient in countering archers.

For skirms vs skirms Italians would have and edge, but it wouldn’t be broken, since rarely skirms are used offensively.

Still I can see the argument, and I don’t think it would be a problem if for skirms the +1 would be delayed until castle.

At this point it sounds reasonable to start from feudal, as for archers, which is where Italians are by far the worst civ in the game.

skirm base attack is 2, fletching makes it 3, skirm base armor is 3. So the extra armor is not playing any role, bonus damage neglects shown armor. It will be a tie like normal

padded armor isn’t researched in feudal anyway, fletching is enough to counter fletching archers

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Ok it is definitely fine starting from feudal…

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The compromise is that archers get the +1 in feudal, and skirms in castle, but they can get both bonus either in feudal or castle.

That one reason more why +1PA or free archer armor is a good bonus.

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Since is coherent with what we are talking about here, I’ll link this topic here, so that it can be both source of inspiration for future discussions and to help there on finding the right solution.

I have thought a bit about this bonus compared with Vietnamese.

Basically in feudal Viets would have a better archer, similar in archer fights but better vs scouts. Same thing in castle age, where viets xbow should survive one more knight hit.

Regarding the skyrms, assuming that you use skyrms just to fight archers, +1PA skyrm should be better than a viet skyrm (both in feudal and castle ages). In other situations (vs skyrms or in the case of melee fights) viet skyrm is superior or equal but this is not a huge issue imo.

In later stages, when special upgrades (pavise, imp skyrm) enter the game, the situation switches. The Vietnamese impl skyrm is way superion in everything than a +1PA skyrm, while an arb with +1PA and pavise is superior to the viet arb.

This does make sense to me for Italians, which would have a basic combo hussar/condo (depending on how much gold you have) + a very solid arbalest, which is substituted by a range-vs-everything policy depending on the needs: Italians should replace their arbalests with +1PA skyrm, cheap HC, or GC (assumed with buffed TT) depending on what the enemy does. Basically a sort of ranged Incas.

Sorry I didn’t get what doesn’t make sense to you?

I have said that it does make sense :slight_smile:

Ofc I am talking about this

No I meant, it doesn’t make sense that their arbs would be buffed because Italians have other units to use, or it doesn’t make sense that in the early game viets would be better vs melee?

Because in the second case, only knights would be the real melee counter, but in castle age Italians would have pavise.

In feudal, skirms are the main archer counter, so Italians would be fine?

I wanted to say that everything makes sense of a +1PA armor buff for archers and skyrms

Ok, so to summarize, you think that +1PA is too little, so you think that +1/1 is better?

What about free archer armor and buffing pavise to +1/2 for arbs only?
I’m just tinkering of various combos of various bonus, just for the sake of discussion…

I’m also reconsidering a bit the faster researching techs bonus, like 50% faster, but I fear that this would be either too strong or too weak…

Sorry I was meaning +1PA to archers and skyrms. Edited.

My idea is:

  • +1 PA for archers only is just a worse Vietnamese bonus. I do not like it that much…
  • +1 PA for archers and skyrms implies better skyrms but worse archers than vietmamese, which is then a different bonus. Once the special techs are researched (pavise and imp skyrm) vietmamese get a superior skyrm while italians a superior arbalest. So the situation switches with respect to early game

Well, I prefer +1PA for skyrms and archers since it provides Italians a range vs everything policy which would be very unique.

Yeah this does not sound that good and I am not sure if it is important on water

Ah ok, so just to be clear, it’s +1PA to Arbs and skirms, not +1/1 to Arbs and skirms.
Right?

Ok now I get it.

Mmm ok…

Yeah, it’s either crazy fast or meaningless…

Yes. +1PA for both. +1 MA would make italian archer paired with the vietmamese one in feudal vs scouts, while viet xbow should still take one hit more from knights.

Also I think in general Italians should be weak to melee civs in the early stages (so +1PA is fine) since if the GC is fixed, civs like franks should have an advantage in feudal/early castle since they will be hard countered in the later stages

Yes I agree, firstly because HP is more important than armor on melee, and that’s is viets territory, secondly, scouts in feudal aren’t that effective vs archers, unless they can pick them up while apart.

Overall this solution (+1PA for Archer-line and skyrms) has several really important advantages:

  • it gives Italians something to play in the early stages on land. They would still remain pretty weak, but at least playable
  • it does not overlap too much with Vietnamese
  • it introduces a very unique range-vs-everything game style for Italians (if the GC TT is buffed ofc)
  • it has an almost negligible effect on water
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Could work…
Still let’s keep the free archer armors as plan B.

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If so, I would restore the old effect of Pavise on skyrms…

My personal preferences are:

  1. +1PA for archer-line and skyrms
  2. free archer armors and pavise affects skyrms again

I think it is pretty cool if there exists a civ countering everything from range

Still I am curious to know what other people involved in the discussion think on +1PA on archer-line and skyrms