New italians after the update and further ideas for the next ones

Probably true… so do you think +1PA to archers a d skyrms would fix Italians?

Actually they would have the range vs everything style (+1PA skyrms, cheap HC, GC)

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IDK, I think they’ll still have late game problems of not having a particularly strong unit

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Yeah, that was what I though initially, but I wanted the bonus to be extended to HCs. Perhaps that’s too much however…If HCs are buffed in the next patch, that’s probably not needed. Otherwise, it could be nice.

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Definitely true, but if GC TT is fixed, at least they would have an anti meta unit

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Yes exactly, I expect a general HC buff

I mean the devs have to specify particular units with genie editor anyway, I don’t think it works like “all archery range units”


Yeah, it was just to make the bonus a bit more intuitive instead of saying except this or that in the description. Anyway, if the +1 PA is given to skirms and archers, it’s probably already enough of a bonus.

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It says so in the description but the coding is still given to individual units

Still it does not sound difficult to implement. However I would limit the +1 PA bonus to archer-line and skyrms, since:

  • GC has a different role
  • HC needs a general buff for all the civs (I expect it probably)
  • CA is so rare that I think it does not make any difference

It would make Italians skirms more cost efficient in countering archers.

For skirms vs skirms Italians would have and edge, but it wouldn’t be broken, since rarely skirms are used offensively.

Still I can see the argument, and I don’t think it would be a problem if for skirms the +1 would be delayed until castle.

At this point it sounds reasonable to start from feudal, as for archers, which is where Italians are by far the worst civ in the game.

skirm base attack is 2, fletching makes it 3, skirm base armor is 3. So the extra armor is not playing any role, bonus damage neglects shown armor. It will be a tie like normal

padded armor isn’t researched in feudal anyway, fletching is enough to counter fletching archers

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Ok it is definitely fine starting from feudal…

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The compromise is that archers get the +1 in feudal, and skirms in castle, but they can get both bonus either in feudal or castle.

That one reason more why +1PA or free archer armor is a good bonus.

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Since is coherent with what we are talking about here, I’ll link this topic here, so that it can be both source of inspiration for future discussions and to help there on finding the right solution.

I have thought a bit about this bonus compared with Vietnamese.

Basically in feudal Viets would have a better archer, similar in archer fights but better vs scouts. Same thing in castle age, where viets xbow should survive one more knight hit.

Regarding the skyrms, assuming that you use skyrms just to fight archers, +1PA skyrm should be better than a viet skyrm (both in feudal and castle ages). In other situations (vs skyrms or in the case of melee fights) viet skyrm is superior or equal but this is not a huge issue imo.

In later stages, when special upgrades (pavise, imp skyrm) enter the game, the situation switches. The Vietnamese impl skyrm is way superion in everything than a +1PA skyrm, while an arb with +1PA and pavise is superior to the viet arb.

This does make sense to me for Italians, which would have a basic combo hussar/condo (depending on how much gold you have) + a very solid arbalest, which is substituted by a range-vs-everything policy depending on the needs: Italians should replace their arbalests with +1PA skyrm, cheap HC, or GC (assumed with buffed TT) depending on what the enemy does. Basically a sort of ranged Incas.

Sorry I didn’t get what doesn’t make sense to you?

I have said that it does make sense :slight_smile:

Ofc I am talking about this

No I meant, it doesn’t make sense that their arbs would be buffed because Italians have other units to use, or it doesn’t make sense that in the early game viets would be better vs melee?

Because in the second case, only knights would be the real melee counter, but in castle age Italians would have pavise.

In feudal, skirms are the main archer counter, so Italians would be fine?