New italians after the update and further ideas for the next ones

Since you like tier list videos, here is a tier list for arena, which is one of the closest maps there is, by hera, and he put them on D tier.

Those are only the full water maps.

Then why are Vikings good on both water and land

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I’m again thinking of the bonus of 40% faster TT for foot archers (skirms, xbows and GC), I think that it could be on pair with the free archer armors or +1PA.

Like @Sylux1000 point out, this would help the Italians on pure land a bit (but less than the other 2 bonus, so people wouldn’t complain about them being OP) and at the same time it would solve the GC problem (or at least it’s main one).

So with one bonus we could solve both problems, and that is what I like about it.
Of course, this is just a rough idea, and it can be tinkered a bit to find its right balance.

For example, it doesn’t have to be 40%, it could be 30% (more than 20%, otherwise it’s the Britons team bonus), or it could be incremented through the ages, like 25/30/40%.

Another option it could be that it starts only in castle age, though, this was a nice way to buff their archer rush without making it OP.

I want to know everyonethoughts on this.

The vid was made after the patch that buffed teutons, lith&co.

Still, they received buff, and some were buffed again after the video.

Ie.It was after Lith got the super good leitis and buffed tower shield, that Teutons got even more armour, and as far as I know it’s the last time they were buffed. The other buffs were the sligth improvement of Port/Korean, but since Italian were buffed too…

Meh… the new condos are fine but nothing too crazy…

Still, those civs were buffed, and maybe some simply didn’t have their meta discovered yet.

This is a bonus also because Italians could get away with just one range in feudal, even if it’s a bit stretched (1 range can train for 2 only with a 50% faster TT).

Still, this could allow to save 175 wood, which isn’t bad.

40% reduced TT (or even a 30/35/40% along the ages) is definitely much weaker than an armor bonus.
Disadvantages

  • it is not a huge push in feudal. Simply it helps to spare time, but still the Italian eco will not support 2 ranges running so importantly.
  • spamming archers no stop is not that great in feudal. Otherwise civs with a stronger eco would simply drop a 3rd archery range
  • this doest not allow you to spare 175w, you still need.2 archery ranges… unless the bonus is stretched at 50% which is too much imo
  • you will remain behind in every archer war even vs Vikings a d Japanese

Advantages

  • the bonus is clearly not OP at all and even quite conservative people should accept it without problems
  • it fixes in an elegant way the GC problem
  • it gives Italians a signature ability, which is very different from the other civs
  • the main strength of the bonus is that it allows you to build rapidly the archer mass
  • it is historically accurate

Overall, even with the bonus Italians will remain weak. However, considering that this bonus fixes all the issues in one shot (GC TT, missing archer bonus in early stages, something remaining in the later stages) it would be a very well designed bonus, perfectly fitting the civ needs. Even if the civ is not strong enough…

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But they could perform an archer rush with just one range. Saving 175 wood in feudal is bad at all.

Also, yes they don’t have the eco to spam a lot of archers, but even just have the possibility to hit the enemy “40%” sooner when he could be not ready for you isn’t something to underestimate.

I know that on paper it’s not like this, but with some inventive and changing the meta a bit, it could work, it depends by the strategy that you choose:

  • you want to hit fast and do as much damage as you can in feudal, then you put down 2 rages and have almost the double of the archer that you would get in the same time (or the same amount but sooner), and hit your enemy before he could properly react.

  • you want to perform a fast castle, but using some archers to harass your enemy/defending yourself, then you put down only one range, you would have only few archers less (about 10%, which can be enough in this situations) but you would spare wood and working time.

It is flexible after all, it could be a worth bonus.

I know, but people don’t want for Italians to be good on open maps, and I can see the argument.

This over all is a bonus that:

  • don’t touch the water balance
  • wouldn’t make the Italians OP on land.
  • it would solve the so much craved TT of the GC
  • overall it would give them a small buff to the Italians
  • it would be a flexible bonus, good both for rush or defense
  • it would be more unique, less similar to other archer bonus
  • it is historically accurate (that never hurts)

Still, +1PA (arbs+skirms) or free archer armors could work too, provide that the TT of the GC is reduced separately.

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I am not sure about this, but this proposal of faster TT seems to me the one that can solve all in one shot (Italians on land, people that want italians weak, no water issues, GC, archers, uniqueness).

I think this proposal should have more visibility…

Well, faster TT always comes in handy, especially if it’s a strong bonus like 40%.

Still, it nice to have one more option…

Against Vietnamese Italians still feel very weak.
Some kind of power spike in Feudal / Early Castle would help.
Free archer armour or faster archer production could be nice. Condos with more PA could also be nice.

There’s still no reason to do anything funny with the GC training time.

?

Well, it’s normal that some civs are weak to other civs, viets simply are a counter to all archer civs.
Italians still have hussars, condos and cheap BBC vs them, so they aren’t really defenseless.

40% faster TT with cheaper aging up could become a strong archers rush, even faster than other archer civs.

I mean, if the GC TT needs to be reduced, I see no reaons to couple that to a tech or to a TT reduction of all archers, or any of the other strange things which have been proposed. A simple TT reduction is much simpler than any of that, and I’d argue simple is preferable.

I tried condos, but they didn’t really work. I don’t think Hussar would have done much better, and BBC only work if you can protect them.
If condos had 1-2 more PA they might be able to do the job.
I think archer civs need to hit Viets before they can get to multiple castle Rattan production, but in my perception Britains can do so better than Italians.

yes

The point is that Italians are in huge needs of:

  • a reduction of GC TT
  • some archer buff to have a reason to exist on land.

An option would be to address both points separately (like -4s TT and the armor bonus for archer-line and skyrms).

Another option would be to give a TT civ bonus like 30/35/40% along the ages to fix both issues in one shot.

The first option is definitely stronger, but the second one is more elegant imo

Well, both the UT are already used, but yet, putting it as a bonus doesn’t seem too strong, and it would be less changes to do, other than be easier to understand.

Maybe cavaliers too, but again, viets simply are strong vs archers civs.

This could be a weaker version, but in my opinion, 40% in feudal is balanced.

The free armor is useful as well, but te faster TT is more stronger in my opinion.

Still between the 3 options:

  • free archer armor techs + less TT for GC

  • +1PA for arbs and SKIRMS (stackable with pavise) + less TT for GC

  • 40% less TT for foot archers (xbows, skirms, GC)

I hope that the devs at least implement one of those.

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It is clear from the topic on Italian FC the value of the age up discount… very limited. Interesting, it is all the civ has up to imp

You mean this:

Well, with the 40% faster TT for foot archers, their archers rush could become really good.
You could put more vills on wood/gold thanks to the more food saved and have your archers sooner.

It could work well with the free armor too, but it would be weaker.

The +1PA doesn’t really do much for that…