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Yeah, but trust me on this…
Yeah but at the same time they ban and stopped a lot of scientific research…
The renaissance happened more because they dominate the trade between Europe and Asia.
Also, to a point of view, they stayed in the “dark ages” longer than other European civs.
That could work too, not the best option in my opinion, but still better than nothing.
SotL made a video with hera explaining it.
Sorry but from the smartphone I can’t link it.
I would prefer to find a definitive solution, and avoiding go bock and forward for months.
I do, but I do not think you are negating that Italians were a cultural center. Still I believe you on the archer part, 100%.
I think we have to separate the issues. Italians need:
- an early game help → this is for true 100%
- a late game archer help → here someone may disagree. Personally I agree, but still I would say that they are not the worst late game civ. They are probably the weakest early game civ
The rebalance is much more versatile (and imo unique).
Let me say like this: the rebalance can be played as free archer armors, but it is more useful, for instance, if you are going knights.
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Typically I am the guy again Italian buffs
Now I am saying that the best option is maybe the one stronger for them, the rebalance. Plus the pavise buff as option (but only for the archer line)
Also I would not be to scared if a small tuning is needed after the patch. Byzantines were tuned last time after years.
Well, it’s complicated, some cities were (Venice, Florence, Genova, Milan…) but that were late in the time arc covered by aoe2, for most of the middle ages they were less relevant and cultural and technological behind…
The renaissance were when they were at their peak, but they while they were ahead on culture, philosophy and arts, they were that far ahead in technology or science.
A small buff to their archers early on could help a lot more than a eco boost that happens 3 time in a game (sometimes less).
It would mean making the most out of their units.
For civs that’s necessary…
But it would be better to just find the right balance (or at least try) right away.
The sooner the better achievable balance is reached, the sooner the bugs will stop (maybe).
I can see a huge disadvantage tbh. +1PA is:
- equivalent to vietmamese bonus in an archer fight. Equivalent means that up to pavise nothing change. viets would be a stronger version of italians up to the late game since the better eco, the skyrm bonus, plus some other small help (free conscription and known starting positions)
- equivalent to eco civs (vietmamese, vikings) researching the armor while you cannot because of your terrible eco
- weaker than extra range or extra dps from britons and Ethiopians, which also have superior eco and other bonuses like free pikes or faster ranges
My big fear is that none would prefer Italians to another archer civ. Even with +1PA, at least until late castle age.
While a rebalance would allow you to be more flexible. For instance it allows you to play better you open tech tree.
I am just saying that Italians would be more unique…
Still I will pick the +1PA, the civ is really bad now. But for me it is important that every civ is different, I would not like a weaker version of Vietnamese.
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Is equivalent only before pavise.
In any case, viets will always be the counter to Italians.
That way at least they would have a fighting chance with tanky arbs and hussars.
The idea is to give them a small help, no an insane bonus. Also Italians would still have their flexible tech tree as an advantage over civs like britons or mayans.
Combined with an unit that is a bit more strong than the ordinary (the arbs) it could make the difference.
They wouldn’t be, italians have hussars, condos, better monks, defense (viets lack masonry and architecture) and cheaper gunpowder.
They aren’t that similar.
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That is why I would work on this… a small eco rebalance and that is all. Still +1 works…
Let us see, I am curious on what people think on the possible rebalance options
A new Clown Cup game with Viper fighting with Italians vs Aztecs, just saw a group of Italian Condos, HCs and Hussars, defeat a much greater number of Garland EEWs and Atlatl ESkirms.
General opinion is shifting towards Italians being too strong, and Condo was over-buffed.
The Condottieri just slaughtered Garland Wars EEWs like they were made of paper, and even while vastly outnumbered.
Aztecs ESkirms were enough to one-shot the Condos per volley, and still stood no chance.
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< It was pre-patch >
In that game actually there were a lot of HCs decimating eagles. If you notice also, skyrms were not fighting.
Still I believe that Italians late game is fine and was fine. The point is the early stages. Where Italians are exactly the same.
I have proposed a rebalance between the discounts following also your advice. Curious on your feedback tbh.
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Really? Then they really were over-buffed!
Just because an Infantry killed Eagles?
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which just furthers his point.
if pre patch italian condos with hc and hussar beat all those units, imagine how much worse it would be with 1/1 more armor and 1 more attack.
an infantry that also beats champions 1v1, has a fast training time, and is fast enough that it can actually get on top of and beat archers.
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Welcome to this topic
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been working a lot of hours lately.
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A much greater number of the best Eagles for Melee Combat.
Aztec Eagles are almost Paladin levels of strength.
If pre-buff Condos can massacre them like that, imagine now!
and cost almost 2x than (goldwise) a Champion
and Tatoh didn’t have Blast Furnace and Garland Wars when he had 50 eagles engaging against Condos
ok
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But unlike Champion, has no bonus damage vs Egles, and kills the best Eagles anyway.
that is why I am asking for opinions on a rebalance on the early stages! Where italians have been always weak!
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