I do not think they need any buffs for earlier stages, since the Age Up discount and the Condottier already dictate that Italians should always Fast Imp, while backed by Archers (which is not difficult, since Archers cost no Food, and Gold is only really an issue in Imp).
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They are similar to EEW, and they trade more attack and MA for PA and a bit of speed, but for raiding hussars are still the best option for Italians.
They can be used sooner thanks to the lack of upgrades, but then hussars become the best option.
Well, we are talking only of small buff, something that helps a bit the archer rush, and maybe help them on their fast imp, to help them buy as much time possible, since they need to build a castle.
Fast imp is a suicide an arabia-like maps. But clearly in some other scenarios is a strategy (and it was before).
The issue which I still see is a negligible evo buff in the early stages, which makes them too weak. That is why I do think they need some sort of eco push (or military buff) in feudal. The eco push requires a tuning of the water bonuses, while the military buff does not
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unless you think of a mechanics like this:
thought you said hussar. my bad.
im not saying nerf them.
the problem with cost effective is it usually requires more numbers, and not many units are made faster then Condos.
yeah but you donât need Pavise to be problematic.
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Tatoh took most of the crucial engagements without having garland wars and it still wasnât a massacre, viper just had better numbers and army control. Tatoh only got garland wars after he was already in a bad spot military and position wise. By the time he had it viper had a nice group of hc in the back and did a great job of microing an army of 3-4 different units in one spot (which isnât easy by all means).
Pre-patch condos lose to eagles with garland wars. Now after the buff they win but champs still perform way better here (as they should).
Nah where do you get that from? They certainly donât kill arbs and they should more or less trade equally vs champs (stats suggest they slightly lose but didnât try it out in practice) while costing more gold.
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they can easily get on arbs and kill them with their 5 pierce armor and 1.32 speed, the same way woads can.
as for Champs, they beat Generic Champs 1v1 and they are produced faster too, so good luck with your âmore cost efficient tradesâ because you canât out boom him.
also champs require much more investment techwise.
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5 pa isnât that much vs archers. You just have to maintain a large groups of arbs (which is pretty easy because you can mass them before imp) and condos wonât kill that. They perform better now after the patch but itâs still not great. Btw, woads get usually countered by arbs. You need siege in the mix to get a favorable engagement, here. Sometimes you can use the mobility to attack from multiple sides if you have large numbers but it doesnât work in most cases.
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while true, the mobility they enjoy allows them to easily get on them either way.
like a ram or two to draw fire? common tactic.
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Actually, it was Tatoh that had the numbers, in that fight.
Usually fast imp is used by civ with a unit that need few upgrades (HC, conqs, janissarysâŠ), condos can be used, but they require 9 upgrades (6 from the blacksmith, 2 from the barracks and pavise), for comparison jannisarys need only 3 + elite.
On arabia fast imp can be pulled off I you are able to wall yourself. The problem is that itâs an all in strategy, you have one chance of success, then itâs an auto lose.
For fast imp you donât need an eco bonus.
Yes I was talking about hussars, but I meant that EEW and huskarls train as fast as condos (huskarls faster), meaning that itâs not that insane the TT of condos, and itâs not impossible to counter.
Goth flood is a lot more difficult to counter.
Not necessarily, it enaugh to stall your opponent on an slow frictional war until he run out of gold, while you still have your saved.
Well, until now you almost never saw non Italians condos, and itâs still a rare case to see them (for example, why goths should use them instead of huskarls, they can use for a small time window, or if they need a fast unit with more MA, but most of the time it will be better for them to simply overpower the enemy with a flood of huskarls).
Condos won vs EEW with garland wars even before the patch.
Yeah but onestly if let them do itâs only fair that itâs gg.
Even champions if they can close the gap destroy any archer.
If the Italians manage to do a fast imp it is difficult, but if both players boomed in castle itâs not impossible to tech into champs.
Also generic knights works too.
Mobility isnât everything, otherwise lithuanians halbs should be good vs archers.
Both EEW and huskarls have both high PA and high speed, huskarls also have an insane bonus damage and armor, and eagles are faster and have the meso bonus (more HP, attack, armor).
WR are better than condos since they have the same speed, PA and HP, and also a lot more attack.
Condos are fast and have a decent PA, but that doesnât make them an anti archer unit.
Starting from feudal, TCs generate 20f/min (or 20g/s if you like more) if you do not have fishing ships (or docks).
This does not act on water
Also:
Starting from feudal, you get a gold trickle of 20g/s if you do not have docks.
This is a way to give the trickle without affecting the water game as @DoctBaghi recommends. Aoe2 does not apply a lot of conditional bonuses but here it would be perfect for the goal.
Because itâs not aoe3, aoe2 has a different general concept, and most of their most affectionate players donât want it changed.
That being said, it such limitations would put the Italians on a weird situation on ibrid maps, since their cheap FS, helps a bit, but their eco and military lag behind civs like japs, malay, mongol, celtsâŠ
If the problem with balancing condos is that other civs condos are too strong. Would it be too crazy of an idea to make their team bonus âtrade units 50% cheaperâ and make condos an italian only unit. Then change the effects of silk road and rename it as appropriate? It might be easier to balance them without considering how it buffs other teams.
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Well, on hybrid they are decent. I mean, a conditional bonus would fix the pure land maps, which is where they are fully underpowered
Why do you think that the allied condos are too OP? They arenât affected by pavise, and usually the allied civ have better options to chose over the condos.
Also, if silk road becomes the new team bonus, then they would need a new UT for imp.
Agree to disagreeâŠ
I thought that the effects of Silk Road would be a better team bonus for late game, similar to spanish. Plus if the other civs have better options than condos then why are condos a team unit?
Well, occasionally they can have some good synergies with other civs, and they work as an immediate emergency units.
Even if itâs even more rare, they always counter gunpowder.
It would be a lot more strong than the spanish bonus, since it means more trade units or a lot of saved wood and gold.
Ahhh I didnât think of that, your logic sounds better in hindsight